TAIL LIGHT - RUNNING. LIGHT

For Pre A discussions and questions
Message
Author
Tom Kaiser
356 Fan
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:32 am

TAIL LIGHT - RUNNING. LIGHT

#1 Post by Tom Kaiser »

K3204, red tail light with blinker, outer rear, dual-pole socket and bulb (20/5 watt)

TAIL LIGHT : 20W

BLINKER : 5 W CORRECT ?

User avatar
Greg Bryan
356 Fan
Posts: 3692
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:05 pm
Location: San Pedro, CA 90732; Fallen Leaf, CA 96150
Contact:

Re: TAIL LIGHT - RUNNING. LIGHT

#2 Post by Greg Bryan »

Just the opposite - the Brake light/Turn signal should be 18W or 20 is fine
The Tail light, which is not as bright is the 5W bulb.
Greg Bryan

User avatar
Brett Johnson
Registry Hall of Fame
Posts: 641
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:37 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Re: TAIL LIGHT - RUNNING. LIGHT

#3 Post by Brett Johnson »

Amber turn signal is the single pole inner unit.
Brett Johnson

User avatar
Donald Zingg
356 Fan
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:03 pm
Location: Sunny So. California
Contact:

Re: TAIL LIGHT - RUNNING. LIGHT

#4 Post by Donald Zingg »

Brett Johnson wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:31 pm Amber turn signal is the single pole inner unit.
Brett, Brett, Brett - - -
Inner pair of beehives are single pole stop lights.
Refer the page L61 in the 1954 P-356 workshop manual - - 31Li - Replacing Bulb of stop light.
Therein lies the origin story of the amber color beehive lens - - - FWIW.
Below left = original red lens. The other two are original amber lenses - - one smooth, one pebble texture.
Backlit brighter than normal for comparison - - -
----
Attachments
beehive lenses - pre-A red vs. amber.jpg

User avatar
Brett Johnson
Registry Hall of Fame
Posts: 641
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:37 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Re: TAIL LIGHT - RUNNING. LIGHT

#5 Post by Brett Johnson »

Yeah, I don't transcribe my book well. The inner light is a single pole brake light but has the amber lens and the outer one was red and had the dual pole unit for tail and signal light. On the 356A the outer unit did the same things (with a single filament bulb) but had the amber lens, while the inner one was again the single filament brake light with the red lens. It is easy to get confused at my age...
Brett Johnson

User avatar
James Davies
356Talk Moderator
Posts: 2951
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Heidelberg, DE

Re: TAIL LIGHT - RUNNING. LIGHT

#6 Post by James Davies »

Tom, yes, all correct for pre-A, except it is 5W tail light, 20W blinker. The outer 20/5 bulb is a dual-filament bulb that can only go into the base one way. So wire it accordingly. FWIW, the 356A T1 uses a single pole 5W bulb on the inner beehive for the tail light only, and the outer is a single pole 15W for for the blinker and brake.

And hey, everyone is here! Rear beehives are something I wanted to discuss too after reading Brett's column in Registry magazine last night.

I will say with 95% certainty that there was no orange rear lens in the 1953 model year. The lenses were short, pebbled and red. And the single-pole lens and dual-pole lenses were identical, except for a "1" or "2" stamped at the tip inside, to indicate that it was for the single or dual pole socket. Don't know why they did that, as it was unnecessary, given they were identical. This is based on investigation of many existing, well-preserved cars spanning early 1953 to mid-1954. But indications are that this is true for late 1952 and late 1954 as well, based on photos. Would love more data, or anything original that contradicts this.

I'm less confident about 1955. The copy of the 1955 parts book I have shows that something changed in the rear brake light (inner, single pole, K1485) at coupe 53210 (cab 60765) which is roughly in March 1955. This inner stop lamp changed from a 15 watt bulb to 20 watt bulb, and one assumes because the bulbs were bigger, the base needed a deeper socket? I don't know for sure. But there was a change, and it is recorded. As a change in the overall unit, and a change in the socket in the 1955 parts book. Perhaps the lens became taller as well? Just the inner? Inner and outer? Inquiring minds want to know.

Now it also says that the pre-53210 lens was amber as well, and this is just not the case, as mentioned above. Perhaps that the case for the 356A and the writers assumed the pre-A had as well. Recall this parts book was released in late 1955 or 1956. After T1 production was well underway.

A fun side note, the parts drawing in the 1955 parts book has the lights reversed inner-outer, likely causing much confusion over the years. But the same beehive elements of the drawing are used in the 1957 parts book, where the (inner) tail light and outer (brake/blinker) is valid. Of course the 1957 book gets it wrong for T1, as it lists the outer (orange brake/blinker) as being dual pole. Perhaps this was a production change sometime during T1 production? If it was, it happened sometime after Feb 1957, based on well-preserved existing cars.
Attachments
1953 inner and outer beehives
1953 inner and outer beehives
1954 Reutter Care pamphlet (Nov 1953 wiring diagram)
1954 Reutter Care pamphlet (Nov 1953 wiring diagram)
1954 Reutter Care pamphlet
1954 Reutter Care pamphlet
1955 Parts Catalog
1955 Parts Catalog
1955 Parts Catalog
1955 Parts Catalog
1954 Service Manual (published early 1956)
1954 Service Manual (published early 1956)
1954 Service Manual (published early 1956)
1954 Service Manual (published early 1956)
1956 Workshop manual
1956 Workshop manual
1956 Workshop manual
1956 Workshop manual

User avatar
James Davies
356Talk Moderator
Posts: 2951
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Heidelberg, DE

Re: TAIL LIGHT - RUNNING. LIGHT

#7 Post by James Davies »

Oh, and here's my understanding of pre-A 1953 to 1955 model year rear beehives. Drawn on my white board (excuse the messiness and reflections).
Attachments
IMG_6792.jpeg

User avatar
Alan Hall
356 Fan
Posts: 1452
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:06 pm
Location: Orinda, CA

Re: TAIL LIGHT - RUNNING. LIGHT

#8 Post by Alan Hall »

James mentioned that he outer dual filament bulb can only go in one way. In my '53 the dual filament bulb does not have offset pins and thus can be installed in two ways, the correct orientation was achieved with a notation for top or up marked on the bulb. I asked about this a few years ago and Brad Ripley responded:

The double pole sockets on my '53 pre-A use a non offset pin type of double filament bulb (with an "up" or "top" marking for orientation). Are replacement bulbs available any more in this configuration and 6 volt?
Alan

Brad Ripley replied:

Alan is referring to a bulb designated as BA15d, or IEC (International Electrotechnical Commission) standard 7004-11A, and DIN standard 49721. This bulb is not to be confused with BAY15d which has offset pins. Note the lower case "d" is for double contact (lower case "s" would be for single contact).

The bulb is our number 900-631-008-90. It now comes in only a six volt 21/5 watt; originally it was 18/5 watt. Height is taller than in the old days. It may require the socket to be pushed lower in the lamp base so the bulb will clear the lens.

User avatar
Brett Johnson
Registry Hall of Fame
Posts: 641
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:37 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Re: TAIL LIGHT - RUNNING. LIGHT

#9 Post by Brett Johnson »

The inner brake light (K1485) with taller lens (33mm vs. 29mm) went from 15W to 20W at coupe 53210 and cabriolet 60765 – late February 1955. Those chassis numbers supplied by Porsche should be considered relative since the light units were a final assembly item.

The 356A outer single filament light was marked K1481. The K1485 inner light continued to be used until teardrop units were installed.
Brett Johnson

User avatar
Donald Zingg
356 Fan
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:03 pm
Location: Sunny So. California
Contact:

Re: TAIL LIGHT - RUNNING. LIGHT

#10 Post by Donald Zingg »

Brett Johnson wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:04 pm Those chassis numbers supplied by Porsche should be considered relative since the light units were a final assembly item.
Final assembly at Porsche Werk II ?
Didn't Reutter supply the P-car bodies with electrical components installed and hooked up?
And Porsche installed suspension, steering, brakes, wheels, transaxle, engine and related hardware - - -
------
Attachments
Body delivery.jpg

User avatar
James Davies
356Talk Moderator
Posts: 2951
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Heidelberg, DE

Re: TAIL LIGHT - RUNNING. LIGHT

#11 Post by James Davies »

Thanks for the correction Alan. Of course you're right. The BA15d does not have offset pins. I was confused. In any case, how ever the socket is wired, the bulb should go in so that when the lights are on, it is running at 5W, and when the blinker goes on, it gets the 20W. Alan, what happens if you install it 180 degrees offset?

And yes, lights and wiring were always something installed at Reutter, though at very close to the end of Reutter production of a chassis. See photo below. And of course Brett's point about a sharp chassis number cutoff for lighting accessories is likely fuzzy, due to Reutter finishing cars out of chassis number order. They probably started using the new 20W brake lights on a particular day that corresponded with coupe 53210.

So the unknowns from my point of view are, was there a short 29mm "orange" lens (as shown in Don's photos) available any time during pre-A production. Or was it the taller 33mm only? And when was it first used?

Also, it's clear that over time the mold release film in the plastic used on these lenses turns yellow. This is easy to see in the clear lenses. Think old 1980-90s white IBM computers that have turned yellow. These clear SWF lenses can be made non-yellow again with hydrogen peroxide and sunlight. Has anyone tried this on the dark ones to see if doing so might reveal the slight color difference seen in Don's photos?
Attachments
tumblr_nqx9y7wT8a1ri24hyo1_1280.jpg

User avatar
Spencer Harris
356 Fan
Posts: 1149
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:39 pm
Location: San Joaquin Valley, California

Re: TAIL LIGHT - RUNNING. LIGHT

#12 Post by Spencer Harris »

Beehive lenses from '55 Hoffman Continental coupe, May 10, 1955.
All lenses very dark red, and all are pebbled. Two are stamped "1" and two are stamped "2".
FYI, PO had updated the car with teardrops when I bought it in 1972 (now corrected). The beehive fixtures, K-numbered bezels and these lenses were in a box I received with the car. WooHoo!
55 Lenses.jpg
Spencer Harris
San Joaquin Valley, CA.

User avatar
James Davies
356Talk Moderator
Posts: 2951
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Heidelberg, DE

Re: TAIL LIGHT - RUNNING. LIGHT

#13 Post by James Davies »

Thanks Spencer! That's a nice data point. Do the single pole light fixtures have deeper sockets than those on your '53?

Tom Kaiser
356 Fan
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:32 am

Re: TAIL LIGHT - RUNNING. LIGHT

#14 Post by Tom Kaiser »

James ,

BA 15 D : 180 degrees offset = wrong wattage to blinker / runninglight
BAY 15 D : with the offset pins , the above mistake can not happen while changing the bulb as long as the socket is correctly wired

? Did the production change to BAY , aftermarket sockets are BAY

Orange : see below Stamped SWF K 12660 but 40 mm high , diameter 55 mm 356 part ?


Gläser? Early 356 ? : see below Stamped Hella K 2642 both clear and red , NOS socket 18 W - 20 W and 5 W , with BA pin holder , the bulb contacts are all for single filament bulbs
Attachments
image.jpg
F2201EF1-66E9-48BA-A0E6-CFC4BA872A0A.jpeg
93D54DDD-3BA6-4B97-AC6F-565036EC92C2.jpeg

User avatar
Martin Benade
356 Fan
Posts: 12177
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:52 am
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: TAIL LIGHT - RUNNING. LIGHT

#15 Post by Martin Benade »

Alan, you can probably get by with an offset pin bulb with one pin filed off if the remaining one is at the correct depth. I’ve done this occasionally on late model VW s that have an oddball bulb.
Cleveland Ohio
62 Cabriolet
56 VW
02 IS 300
04 Sienna

Post Reply