1964 C Project Planning - Engine Upgrade Options

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Chris Davis
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1964 C Project Planning - Engine Upgrade Options

#1 Post by Chris Davis »

I'm happy to finally join the club with a 1964 356C project (rusty floors, but no major accident damage) that no longer has its original engine. The car came with a 912 engine that turns freely and has all the carbs/accessories, but will need to be gone through.

I'm considering multiple engine options and hoped those with more experience might weigh in.

First the restoration level/use case... complete body restoration (mild Outlaw) with minimal changes to exterior or suspension (C has disc brakes) stock interior, but we need to add AC.

I live in Utah where summers are long and hot (we had 32 days over 100 degrees this year) and I want to use the car. I don't want to just take it to cars and coffee, but real road trips on the excellent canyon roads we have around here. There will be lots of interstate miles too (required to get to many of the best roads) where the speed limit is 80 MPH and most traffic is running closer to 90 MPH.

I know we can do a lot with the 912 motor... 100 to 125 HP seems doable for not great deal of cost above a standard rebuild, but if it's not the original motor (and we are going to have an AC compressor sitting there when the lid is opened anyway) would I be better off moving away from the 912 and taking advantage of some of the other air-cooled options that would sound the same and provide more power? The Type 4 engine is tempting, and there are some interesting builds on the Type 1 too:
Powerhaus ~175HP 2332cc ~$10K
Powerhaus ~175HP 2332cc ~$10K
At close to 180HP this doubles the power the car came with, doesn't add weight, sounds the same and (turnkey ~$11K) isn't too hard on the budget.

I certainly see an argument for working with the stock block if you have a number matching car, but if it's not number matching, I'm not seeing many downsides to this type of swap. Am I devaluing it significantly by putting a built Type 1 motor in?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts... I'm sure there are options I haven't considered.

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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: 1964 C Project Planning - Engine Upgrade Options

#2 Post by Jacques Lefriant »

wrong color
 

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Chris Davis
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Re: 1964 C Project Planning - Engine Upgrade Options

#3 Post by Chris Davis »

Agreed on the color Jacques (I would do flat black)... but this was the other screen shot option:
More Green...
More Green...

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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: 1964 C Project Planning - Engine Upgrade Options

#4 Post by Jacques Lefriant »

Hi Any air cooled 4 or 6 cylinder engine will do. to most people the value of the car is what the car is worth sans engine + other engine value. unless you find someone that apreciates what you have done.
j
 

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Martin Benade
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Re: 1964 C Project Planning - Engine Upgrade Options

#5 Post by Martin Benade »

Might as well build it to suit you, don’t worry about resale value.
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Bruce Hagopian
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Re: 1964 C Project Planning - Engine Upgrade Options

#6 Post by Bruce Hagopian »

I am SO jealous.
We had over twice the triple digit days for the last two summers in a row.
It get's depressing.
Bruce Hagopian

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Chris Davis
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Re: 1964 C Project Planning - Engine Upgrade Options

#7 Post by Chris Davis »

Jacques Lefriant wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 8:28 pm Hi Any air cooled 4 or 6 cylinder engine will do. to most people the value of the car is what the car is worth sans engine + other engine value. unless you find someone that apreciates what you have done.
j
Thanks Jacques. Six seems heavy for the 356, although reading through some great posts here, I see that it can be done. I guess I want to avoid delving too deeply into suspension modifications, so I'd rather stick with a lighter powerplant.

Is sustained 80 MPH unrealistic? I've been told that cruising for long periods over about 3500 RPM risks oil leaks on any of the 4 cylinder air cooled motors because of excess crank case pressure. (It seems to me racers would have solved this problem early on though.)

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Chris Davis
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Re: 1964 C Project Planning - Engine Upgrade Options

#8 Post by Chris Davis »

Martin Benade wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 9:46 pm Might as well build it to suit you, don’t worry about resale value.
Don't plan on selling it anytime soon and I know we get more license in the Outlaw camp, but I want to avoid doing something silly. A stock motor can always be swapped back in I suppose.

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Chris Davis
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Re: 1964 C Project Planning - Engine Upgrade Options

#9 Post by Chris Davis »

Bruce Hagopian wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 12:44 pm I am SO jealous.
We had over twice the triple digit days for the last two summers in a row.
It get's depressing.
We have a place down in Southern Utah also where temperatures are closer to what you are living with. That's part of the use case... 300 mile freeway drive from Salt Lake to St. George, so I'm hoping to come up with the right formula (Classic 356 look/feel/sound +highway cruise +AC). I did find an interesting electric based AC system being offered for early 911's that might be adapted to the 356:
https://www.classicretrofit.com/en-us/c ... nditioning

So maybe the belt driven compressor won't be needed.

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Chris Davis
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Re: 1964 C Project Planning - Engine Upgrade Options

#10 Post by Chris Davis »

Jacques Lefriant wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 7:30 pm wrong color
Black shroud
Black shroud
Better?

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Bruce Hagopian
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Re: 1964 C Project Planning - Engine Upgrade Options

#11 Post by Bruce Hagopian »

Chris Davis wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:37 pm
Bruce Hagopian wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 12:44 pm I am SO jealous.
We had over twice the triple digit days for the last two summers in a row.
It get's depressing.
We have a place down in Southern Utah also where temperatures are closer to what you are living with. That's part of the use case... 300 mile freeway drive from Salt Lake to St. George, so I'm hoping to come up with the right formula (Classic 356 look/feel/sound +highway cruise +AC). I did find an interesting electric based AC system being offered for early 911's that might be adapted to the 356:
https://www.classicretrofit.com/en-us/c ... nditioning

So maybe the belt driven compressor won't be needed.
I hadn't seen that. Definietely looks promising. Thanks for the link.
Bruce Hagopian

William Whited
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Re: 1964 C Project Planning - Engine Upgrade Options

#12 Post by William Whited »

Hey Chris
I’m looking at a 356 also that has a 912 motor no history that’s running well now but I’m afraid as soon as I buy the car it will need a rebuild. Like you since it’s not original to the car I would consider a Type 1 also. Do you have a link where I can go to for that engine?
Thanks

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Martin Benade
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Re: 1964 C Project Planning - Engine Upgrade Options

#13 Post by Martin Benade »

For the electric AC see they say a 90 A alternator will run it but a 150 A one is preferable. That’s a lot of juice. And about $7400, cheap compared to a Wevo 5 speed.
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Chris Davis
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Re: 1964 C Project Planning - Engine Upgrade Options

#14 Post by Chris Davis »

William Whited wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:34 pm Hey Chris
I’m looking at a 356 also that has a 912 motor no history that’s running well now but I’m afraid as soon as I buy the car it will need a rebuild. Like you since it’s not original to the car I would consider a Type 1 also. Do you have a link where I can go to for that engine?
Thanks
https://powerhausvwparts.com/shop/ols/c ... ey-engines

Powerhaus out of Torrance, CA. They are happy to talk details with you over the phone too. I had a long conversation with Jerry just yesterday... they build a lot of engines and seem to have the process well sorted.

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Chris Davis
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Re: 1964 C Project Planning - Engine Upgrade Options

#15 Post by Chris Davis »

Martin Benade wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:08 pm For the electric AC see they say a 90 A alternator will run it but a 150 A one is preferable. That’s a lot of juice. And about $7400, cheap compared to a Wevo 5 speed.
They upgrade the alternator in the Porsche shroud version of those Powerhaus motors... GM 110 A unit was what I think Jerry said. Still shy of 150 A, but perhaps a higher output unit is available in the same footprint.

I had not seen the Wevo 5 speed. Looks like a nice option... wonder what kind of final drive ratios you can build into that?

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