Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

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Jim Breazeale
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#31 Post by Jim Breazeale »

Chad

What year is that Speedster? It has early shift linkage, suggesting that is a T1. It also has "ribbed" door handles. Weren't Speedster Carrera GTs T2 cars? You could fill volumes with the knowledge that I don't know about Carreras.

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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#32 Post by Charlie White »

Jim's right..........don't see any consensus on this yet. The parts books say what they say but who knows what the factory did for a special customer, or after the parts book was written.......or what a subsequent owner did to his car years after purchase. Would be nice to see a Kardex/COA on a Speedster with a corduroy notation.

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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#33 Post by Chad Comeau »

The Carrera Speedster is a 57.
57 GT Speedster.jpg
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#34 Post by Jim Breazeale »

Thanks Chad.

Fabulous car!
It still doesn't answer the original question, though.
We ,certainly, can say that Carrera GT Speedsters could have, and did come with cord seats.
Did, garden variety (did I really just say that?) Speedsters come with cord seats? The jury is still out, I think.

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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#35 Post by Michael Doyle »

Jim Breazeale wrote:Thanks Chad.

Fabulous car!
It still doesn't answer the original question, though.
We ,certainly, can say that Carrera GT Speedsters could have, and did come with cord seats.
Did, garden variety (did I really just say that?) Speedsters come with cord seats? The jury is still out, I think.

Ciao
I don't wish to confuse anyone on this subject, others can continue to do so...<but> the first T1 356A Carrera GT seats were simply steel Speedster seats...normally with all vinyl (usually black), or many times with Corduroy inserts...with a couple of different colors offered. That, I think, is very simple to understand.

If a Porsche customer wanted this type of GT seat as an option to their car (then and later), whether it be a Speedster, a Coupe, a Roadster, or a Cabriolet (it didn't have to be a Carrera GT), they could order them originally that way..or buy them later from a Dealership (see Charlie White's list), or buy a pair from some other Porsche owner, or whatever. More simple stuff to understand...that was life. These Porsche owners/customers were living like we are today. These seats were fitted in original GT cars, and later in other cars by some other means. It still goes on even today with Porsche customers. The "real" original cars meant to be equipped with GT seats are "only" going to be known by the Ruetter Book production records (or original day 1 pictures, etc.). Steve Heinrichs work/efforts (and a bit of mine) is on a pathway to better help and understand what all this meant back in the original 356 day...and the significance it suggests to documented originality...now.

So, it's not really a complicated subject...or is making it complicated considered fun?...are we having fun yet? Hope so! Cheers to all...and Merry Xmas! -Michael-

ps: As an example...a Ruetter Book "original" 1957 T1 GT build line would read something like this:

608 / 367 / 704 CS / 367 / 3202 / 367 / (dates and key# info, etc. followed)

Silver met/seats-black vinyl w/tan cord/all other black vinyl/white headliner/black vinyl (for all carpet)

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janos szarvadi
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#36 Post by janos szarvadi »

Jim et al,
The silver speedster is NOT one of the rare '59 pushrod GT speedsters. The original aluminum corduroy bucket seats in my car came from a "slaughtered" Belgian T5 Carrera GT coupe. They are NOT original to the pictured speedster.
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#37 Post by Bruce Baker »

Jon Warshawsky wrote:Did these seats exist? And if so what colors were used?

The original owner of #82191 told the restorer working on my car that it came with beige corduroy inserts in black vinyl Speedster seats. The original material is long gone, and the COA is largely blank.

IF that original owner is to be trusted and honored by the restoration of 'his' car, then what choice do you have? (As the fake Federales would say about this instance, "Reutter books and records...you don't need no stinkin' Reutter records!")......Unfortunately, that quote of "the original material is long gone" is also too true, as the original type of corduroy is difficult, if not impossible, to find today. It didn't wear well when new (I've had several 356s with that material incorporated in their upholstery, back when they were driven every day) and therefore wasn't very practical.

I have never seen this on an original Speedster, but then again I've only seen one Speedster with its original (tired red vinyl) upholstery in place.

Who on this Talk List or anywhere has seen all Speedsters, knows the intimate history, not just a privileged peek at the sacred build books, of each and every one?

I have asked two 356 veterans who have suggested that it was rare in the U.S. and may have been strictly a GT option.

Rare is cool, rare is just that. I just know that I would go with what the original owner remembers. My Kardex didn't record the interior of originally silver 84255, so I asked the original owner and he simply laughed and said "Black."
To move out of the original thread, NOW, can we get clarity on that "wider as the Speedster seats (steel or aluminum) became later GT seats? My A book shows a "Speedster" seat in steel, listed as "not for GT" and then a "+" under the same number for "execution in aluminum" for GT. The T-5 B book shows the suffix .55 for that same seat, only in aluminum, 'only' for GT. The padding is then 'gummi' and no longer formed horsehair, but the ancillary parts remain the same except for the metal lower frame instead of wood. The bottom center seat pad is longer, but I don't see wider. I see nothing listed in the T-6 book, likely due to changed tracks and mounts, but my earliest 911 book shows a similar seat with a 911 number (and full leather as an option, but no corduroy, sorry).

I see that maybe thigh support became longer, but the steel or aluminum 'Speedster' seats not becoming wider from early A through the end of T-5 B, where the option seems to end. All A/B seats could be interchanged, so is that disputable? Where are Jim Perrin and Bill Durland when you need them...what seats were in their SCGTs???
-------------
You are right, Jim....who sez learning arcane details of 356s isn't fun? If this isn't FUN, why are we here? Can we get graduate <online> degrees for this or do we just get Fraternity pins? (and family members can't... even if the Frat has plenty of money?) Some have already qualified for graduation, at least one of us...much more studied in the details of arcanity.... used to call himself, jokingly of course, "Dr." [Whatever] (and rightfully so in most instances)......However, only one B.S. degree is allowed, so if we already have that, we'd have to go for an M.B.S. and then a PhBS or Doctor of B.S. (we can print up our diplomas on blank Kardex forms...now who do we know who has THOSE??? ;-) )

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janos szarvadi
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#38 Post by janos szarvadi »

Difference between T5 and T6 Carrera GT aluminum bucket seats.

Here's an original, never restored T5 seat. Note the TRIPLE stitching.

IMG_4851.jpg


Next is an original, never restored T6 seat. Note the SINGLE stitching and raised side support.
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#39 Post by Jim Breazeale »

Michael Doyle wrote:
I don't wish to confuse anyone on this subject, others can continue to do so...<

Michael

I'm not trying to confuse anyone. We are just trying to answer a question that probably can't be answered definitively. After reading all of your, well researched, info about Carrera GT seats, I am still left wondering if Speedsters came with cord seats.
Maybe I'm the one that is confused.
You suggest that they "could have come with cord seats". The question still remains, Did they come with cord seats?

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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#40 Post by Bil Brown »

There`s a road test on a 1957 Carrera GT Speedster in a 1957 issue of "Sports Cars Illustrated" that clearly shows the corduroy inserts on the Speedster seats. My 1962 Carrera GT Coupe had a steel Speedster seat on the driver`s side. It was wider than a standard Speedster seat, had a longer bottom cushion, but was all black vinyl.....bb#467
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#41 Post by Michael Doyle »

Jim Breazeale wrote:Michael Doyle wrote:
I don't wish to confuse anyone on this subject, others can continue to do so...<

Michael

I'm not trying to confuse anyone. We are just trying to answer a question that probably can't be answered definitively. After reading all of your, well researched, info about Carrera GT seats, I am still left wondering if Speedsters came with cord seats.
Maybe I'm the one that is confused.
You suggest that they "could have come with cord seats". The question still remains, Did they come with cord seats?

Holiday Wishes
Jim...I'm not clear what you're saying. Now I'm confused. Please tell me where I can find my quote <that they "could have come with cord seats"> Could have...? I've been crystal clear as day that Speedster seats with Corduroy inserts were fitted in the first GT cars and later on, as well as available as an option on other models. What more needs to be said..?

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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#42 Post by Jim Breazeale »

Michael

You said "they could order them originally that way.." Sorry for paraphrasing you, my friend. I can find no evidence that GT seats were an available option for Speedsters . Seat options for Speedsters included "Coupe seats" and "Bench seats" there is no mention of "GT" seats. Sure a person could order "GT" seats from the parts dept, but that does not mean they were an available option. Cord seats in a Speedster would be an oddity. All I am saying is that we have no evidence that Cord seats ever came in Speedsters, other than Carrera GTs.

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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#43 Post by Charlie White »

Jim Breazeale wrote: All I am saying is that we have no evidence that......
Jim, I really like that part of your comment! :D

CW
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#44 Post by Jon Warshawsky »

Jim Breazeale wrote:Michael

You said "they could order them originally that way.." Sorry for paraphrasing you, my friend. I can find no evidence that GT seats were an available option for Speedsters . Seat options for Speedsters included "Coupe seats" and "Bench seats" there is no mention of "GT" seats. Sure a person could order "GT" seats from the parts dept, but that does not mean they were an available option. Cord seats in a Speedster would be an oddity. All I am saying is that we have no evidence that Cord seats ever came in Speedsters, other than Carrera GTs.

Regards
PS: Yes, this stuff is fun!
Yes, what I was asking in this thread when I started it, back when I was younger, was whether a plain jane (well, they were at one point...) Speedster might have been produced at the factory with corduroy inserts in standard steel Speedster seats.

The challenge, as Bruce said, was that the fabric never wore well, so the odds of any original Speedster seats surviving with cord centers aren't all that great.

If anyone knows of a pushrod Speedster that definitely came with cord inserts when new, that would certainly clear it up. I have a decent starter Speedster library -- the Heinrichs et al Typ 540 book, Brett Johnsons Restoration Guide, Schrager, Original Porsche 356, Dirk Conradt -- and there is no definitive list of what you could order when the cars were new.

I know that Europeans tended to order their early 911s with the cloth or cord inserts, so maybe it's rare -- or non-existent -- on standard Speedsters because they were almost all exported to the States.
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#45 Post by Michael Doyle »

In the USA (and in Europe) certain Porsche Dealerships back in the day were very much into racing. Dealers here such as Hoffman, Competition Motors, and Brumos, etc. There is evidence to support that these Dealers, and others, special ordered not only certain 356 Carrera's, but other pushrod 356 models to race as well that were fitted with optional GT equipment...like seats, 60mm brakes, Fuel Tank, and rollbars for instance. The proof of that mostly lies in the Ruetter production books...and "sometimes" notations on the Kardex. These cars (to me anyway) were special Dealer made models, Not a Factory series model. And well connected private racers could order their cars through a Dealership that way too.

How many of those cars today that remain exactly the way they were first ordered and delivered is unknown. And those cars that had Corduroy inserts in their special ordered Speedster or GT seats is tough to say...but I wouldn't loose any sleep over it. -MD-

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