Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

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Charlie White
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#46 Post by Charlie White »

Michael,

I like the last part of your comment: "...........but I wouldn't loose any sleep over it."

This is one of those situations were it's probably clear that Carrera GT Speedsters probably could be ordered with the leatherette-corduroy lining combination seats, as per the parts book references. It's probably also true that a prospective Speedster owner could order the same seats for his regularly configured Speedster, under the theory that back then, if you had the geld, Porsche would supply what you wanted! There are lots of situations like this regarding 356 Porsches......that's why "Never say Never, and Never say Always" is a pretty safe road to take. But it's always NICE to have some documentation!

CW
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Norm Miller
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#47 Post by Norm Miller »

Hi Guys,

I have been around Speedsters since 1954.

I have never seen a 356 or 356A with inserts.

I have known 2 GT's 58 & 59? and no inserts. Ah ha, did the GT coupes with buckets have inserts?

The B cars could be ordered with corduroy buckets and apparently A GT's too.

So here I am 56 years later waiting to see one of these rare finds.


"If an item can not be verified then it must be verified"...................norm
Last edited by Norm Miller on Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 

Bruce Baker
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#48 Post by Bruce Baker »

Norm Miller wrote: "If an item can not be verified then it must verified"...................norm
Great quote Norm! This is fun...while we are still young.

BUT.....how about changing Norm's quote's last word to "vilified." That means "to degrade or debase."

Why doesn't the comment from the original owner mean anything? If he said the car came with corduroy inserts and they were available from Porsche.....and you want it to be truly as delivered (to the first owner).....why is there a problem with this other than getting truly accurate corduroy?

Incidentally, I have seen 2 sets of cord insert seats recently, one done by Autos International and one set by Jim Quartermus that looked as close as I have seen in a very long time. One was an A and one was a C, both 'Coupe seats' in cars of 'Euro' delivery.
IMG_3129.JPG
-------------------------

Now, the seats pictured in the T-6 as offered by Janos look a whole lot like the seats pictured in the early 911 parts book. I'm over the corduroy aspect assuming that was a T-6 version of covering even though I can't find that in my books (356 or 911), but I am still curious as to the various comments about "wider" seats in the earlier seat track models (A/T-5B)....where did this legend come from? Who has actually seen wider 'Speedster' seats?
 

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Bil Brown
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#49 Post by Bil Brown »

Bruce........the steel Speedster seat in my old 62 GT Coupe had the same track width as the standard cars, but the seat itself was about 1 1/2" to 2" wider at the bottom sides. I compared it to my 58 Speedster`s seats that I owned at the same time. At some time after I sold the car, Marco Marinello was selling it and can probably confirm that info........Bill
Bill Brown

Jon Warshawsky
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#50 Post by Jon Warshawsky »

Bruce Baker wrote:... Why doesn't the comment from the original owner mean anything? If he said the car came with corduroy inserts and they were available from Porsche.....and you want it to be truly as delivered (to the first owner).....why is there a problem with this other than getting truly accurate corduroy?...
When I bought the car (through California Porsche Restoration and with an inspection by Bob Lee), I pretty much accepted the comments from the original owner as gospel, particularly with a nearly blank COA. Black car, black top, black seats/tan cord inserts, tan carpets. One owner from new, so how could he be wrong?

But, after learning more about the colors offered at the time, paint evidence from stripping the car, an absence of documentation (so far -- though he is still looking), the Reutter build codes, etc., I think this would have had to have been special ordered. So my question about cord inserts in regular production Speedsters was just to confirm that they existed.
Jon Warshawsky
San Diego
1956 Speedster #82191

Bruce Baker
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#51 Post by Bruce Baker »

bil brown wrote:Bruce........the steel Speedster seat in my old 62 GT Coupe had the same track width as the standard cars, but the seat itself was about 1 1/2" to 2" wider at the bottom sides. I compared it to my 58 Speedster`s seats that I owned at the same time. At some time after I sold the car, Marco Marinello was selling it and can probably confirm that info........Bill

OK, Bill, so that was in a T-6 with a different mounting arrangement for tracks, got it, but was the base frame different from the early frames? How were they widened?

Years and years ago, I had stripped a set (steel) with bad covering and pads that were junk and when bared, they had been basically cut in half and a strip of metal tacked with an overlap that made them about 40 or 50mm wider overall. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I wasn't sure whether they were 'original' or someone's butt that made that modification necessary. I never mounted them in a car, I sold them as they were. Maybe they were 'Factory'? What's your take?

My Speedster steel seat shells were the same width as my T-5 aluminum GT seats, at least as far as memory serves. I think I would have noticed from sitting in each during simultaneous ownership if they were different.

For Jon; if you have seen Steve's book, you'll see black Speedsters were rare. Here is one that was black/black/black:
Layman-9-25-08-outside.JPG
 

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janos szarvadi
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#52 Post by janos szarvadi »

Although this doesn't contribute to solving the initial question in this thread, here're some old Polaroids for those of you interested in the difference between early T2 / T5 and later T6 bucket seats. Both are unrestored originals.
IMG_0008.jpg
IMG_0016.jpg
IMG_0015.jpg
IMG_0012.jpg
IMG_0014.jpg
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janos szarvadi
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#53 Post by janos szarvadi »

Below is a copy of the Kardex and a 1960 picture of the first owner of # 84949. It is one of the 1959 pushrod GT Speedsters. In the upper right corner, the Kardex states (translation) grey corduroy and black vinyl.

Is this the missing link ?
IMG_0019.jpg
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Charlie White
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#54 Post by Charlie White »

Janos,

The parts books clearly indicate corduroy inserts were available for GT Speedsters. What is missing is any indication that ordinary Speedsters were available with Corduroy inserts.

From a previous post:

From the parts books.............

356-A Parts Book, Main Group 7, Illustration 64, page 511 & 512.

644.521.001.40/644.521.001.41 (Speedster) Folding seat, left, complete, leatherette, with wooden frame and 2 seat rails-state color.

644.521.001.50/644.521.001.51 (Speedster) Folding seat, left, complete, genuine leather, with wooden frame and 2 seat rails - state color.

644.521.001.52 (Speedster) Folding seat, left, comlplete, with leatherette-corduroy lining combination, wooden frame and 2 seat rails
ONLY FOR CARRERA GT. Factory's words!

644.521.002.40/644.521.002.41 (Speedster) Folding seat, right, complete, with artificial leather lining, wooden frame and 2 seat rails - state color.

644.521.002.50/644.521.002.51 (Speedster) Folding seat, right, complete, genuine leather, wooden frame and 2 seat railsl - state color.

644.521.002.52 (Speedster) Folding seat, right, comlete, with leatherette-corduroy lining combination, wooden frame and 2 seat rails
(ONLY FOR CARRERA GT). Factory's words!

644.521.061.40 (Speedster) Seat Bucket, left, untrimmed - not Carrera GT

644.521.062.40 (Speedster) Seat Bucket, Right, untrimmed - not Carrera GT

644.521.062.50 (Speedster, Coupe) Seat Bucket - Aluminum execution with support, without frame left or right - for Carrera GT.

356-B Parts Book, Main Group 7, Illustration 7/1a, page 1 & 2

644.521.001.55 (Carrera GT) Bucket Seat left complete, leatherette lining or leatherette and corduroy combined.

644.521.002.55 (Carrera GT) Bucket Seat right complete, leatherette lining or leatherette and corduroy combined.

644.521.061.50 (Carrera GT) bucket for seat left or right (light alloy)

CW
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janos szarvadi
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#55 Post by janos szarvadi »

Charlie,

Your factory references are : " ONLY FOR CARRERA GT ". # 84949 however, is NOT a Carrera Speedster. It is a 75 HP pushrod Speedster.

Cheers,
Janos
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Charlie White
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#56 Post by Charlie White »

Are not GT Speedsters basically configured more like Carrera GT Speedsters than normal Speedsters except for the 4-cam engine?

CW
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Jon Warshawsky
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#57 Post by Jon Warshawsky »

Charlie White wrote:Are not GT Speedsters basically configured more like Carrera GT Speedsters than normal Speedsters except for the 4-cam engine?

CW
The only way to put this to bed is for an owner (past or present) of a normal, pushrod Speedster with a COA to step forward. Otherwise it seems we're guessing.
Jon Warshawsky
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Michael Doyle
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#58 Post by Michael Doyle »

Jon Warshawsky wrote:
Charlie White wrote:Are not GT Speedsters basically configured more like Carrera GT Speedsters than normal Speedsters except for the 4-cam engine?

CW
The only way to put this to bed is for an owner (past or present) of a normal, pushrod Speedster with a COA to step forward. Otherwise it seems we're guessing.
John...I wouldn't trust a COA very much for original information on anyone's car...maybe the paint and interior is all, but even those are incorrect many times. I've gathered from your previous posts that your Speedster raced at sometime early in its life. The car was sold to you as a one owner car, and that owner told you the car had Corduroy inserts in the seats. For accurate historical restorations, they can be done as 1) Original, as delivered from the Factory, or 2) a "Point in Time" restoration...meaning the car was restored to the way in which it had some particular significance in its life. This type restoration can be more valuable than making it Factory "original".

So, if you like your Speedster seats with Cord inserts, and the first owner documents them that way...enjoy it as a "Point in Time" car. It's probably very nice that way, and with a story in its history. -MD-

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Michael Doyle
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#59 Post by Michael Doyle »

janos szarvadi wrote:Charlie,

Your factory references are : " ONLY FOR CARRERA GT ". # 84949 however, is NOT a Carrera Speedster. It is a 75 HP pushrod Speedster.

Cheers,
Janos
Janos, Charlie, and John...I previously mentioned how well Charlie's web-site is put together with Factory charts, brochures, and other information. In looking at a couple of bits here and there, I noticed that the description of the 1957 color/interior choices for the Convertible (Speedster) - even the Cabriolet, included a small note at the bottom. It reads in such a way that leads you to understand there are more interior choices available to the customer....and we know "for sure" that Corduroy inserts were an option. It says "Increase according to our Accessory List". So, it may be that Speedster seats with Corduroy inserts were not meant to be a limited offering to Carrera GT only...but an option to whoever wanted them in their special ordered cars. The brochure and notation is shown below:
Porsche 1957 Color-Interior Chart.JPG

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Haig Haleblian
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Re: Speedsters and corduroy seat inserts?

#60 Post by Haig Haleblian »

Michael Doyle wrote:
Jon Warshawsky wrote:Did these seats exist? And if so what colors were used?

The original owner of #82191 told the restorer working on my car that it came with beige corduroy inserts in black vinyl Speedster seats. The original material is long gone, and the COA is largely blank.

I have never seen this on an original Speedster, but then again I've only seen one Speedster with its original (tired red vinyl) upholstery in place.

I have asked two 356 veterans who have suggested that it was rare in the U.S. and may have been strictly a GT option.
Hi Jon,

I suspect that the original owner of the car told you correct information...that the Speedster seats had corduroy inserts in them. Below is from my notes of the Ruetter Book build codes from the mid 50's forward:

704 - Tan Corduroy / CS704 - Cord Samt Tan

I believe the "Cord" insert was a preferred option by many of the private and factory racers in the day using Speedster seats, most likely due to it offering less sliding around in corners.

I've seen Tan and Black Corduroy inserts in the Speedster seats. You may want to consider keeping the original description of the seats to go with restoration of your car. I've included a picture of an original seat below to take a look at. -MD-
Carrera GT Seat I.jpg
Hey! That's my seat. Hey, That's my office!

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