Engine Assembly

[Wes Bender]

We're getting way off topic on an otherwise great and educational thread. Let's get back to learning about rebuilding our own engines!

[Greg Bryan]

I have all the engine parts back in Torrance and will resume the build around mid-October or sooner depending on several factors.

[Steve Douglas]

Greg and others, Thank You. This has been a great discussion, and very timely for me. I have spent the past month going thru parts, and setting aside what I need to build my next engine. On Monday I started assembling the parts. Spent about 15 hours so far and have the case all done and pistons on. Some of the things mentioned in the forum really helped. This morning I was putting the 3rd piece together, and the oil pump discussion made aware of what to look for. I have two sets on excellent gears, one NOS and the other like new. The NOS set didn't fit well, while the other fit well and turned smoothly. Got the 3rd piece on and tried to cover, I had 5 oil pump tach drive covers, one had a bad tach gear so that one is gone, it took three tries to find one that would fit tight. Even with that one pin wouldn't fit so redrilled the hole once I got it fitted.
The engine is a late 62 case, B crank 1st under, C rods, old Glyco bearings, NOS C cam, reground late lifters, Old NPR P&Cs, 62 S-90 heads. Lightened 200mm Flywheel with a Kennedy 200 A Style clutch. NOS 031 distributor. Carbs are still undecided, have a few set of Zeniths, a set of the new Webers and a questionable set of Dellorto 40mm. It hopefully will be the new driver motor for my A coupe.
Some were commenting on using old style and used parts. I didn't want to spend a lot of money when I have good old parts, they were good enough years ago, so what has changed . The case has been sitting for over 40 years, made it way thru 4 owners and part of an estate. So far my external costs have been $245, not including the Kennedy clutch and powder coating of heater boxes. Old parts get traded or bought at swap meets so it's hard to factor in the cost of the set of rods I bought from Harry Pellow at a swap, maybe $75? or the NOS C cam traded for a radio that sat for years in my garage.

[Greg Bryan]

Steve - I like your build - the motor that I’m building has a similar genesis. Most of the reused parts were bought at swap meets, eBay, the Registry classifieds or through contacts. The new parts were bought with a reliable driver motor in mind that will be driven by a guy in his 70’s. I’m not spending a ton - some of the 912 cases I bought a dozen years ago for under $500. Of course, those days are over. I still have three more standard 912 cases on the shelf but I’m thinking I might only build one more motor after this one - but who knows.
I’m using AA piston an cylinders - I think they’re the modern equivalent of the NPRs - I used a bunch of those back in the day and I have a set of used ones in a box. Think of all the good reusable parts that are languishing in parts stashes out there.
Good luck with the build.
I’ll resume my posting when I get back on the project in three weeks or so.

[Harlan Halsey]

What is this about "old parts"? I have never heard of anyone, amateur or professional, assembling a 356 engine with all new parts. Often, most parts are used, original to the engine, with a few new parts. Sometimes major parts are replaced either with new ones or good other used ones. It doesn't matter as long as the parts are good-that's what crack checking is for-and measure within spec. As long as the assembly is something the factory did, there are detailed manuals covering every aspect of an assembly, and the engine can be expected to perform as if the factory had assembled it of new parts. However, if you deviate, say different displacement, different carburetors, then it is up to you.

[Steve Douglas]

Greg, I got two stashes for free, and have been giving away or trading lots of the parts, I did buy a garage full of parts along with two Porsche in an estate, but was able to sell one car and a lot of parts to cover the costs. It seems like there are many more engines and engine parts than buyers and cars, so when a pile of parts come up as a lot the price seems to be very low. I did see the huge price that Wayne Baker's big stash brought, an anomaly? There are lots of guys out there with a few shelves of parts, and are wondering what to do with them, like you with 912 cases, and wondering how many will you need?
As far as pistons and cylinders, there are many options, again cost can be a factor. The NPRs were a standard "go to" back in the day, and I'm sure that the latest offerings by AA will be as good, I got 75,000 miles on my last set of NPRs and they were still in fair shape. I had a set of them from the 80's that I got at swap meet many years ago in a trade.
Harlan, many shops are using mostly new parts: new cranks, new rods, new cam, new flywheel, new heads. The only old parts: the case, bolts and hardware, sheet metal, and maybe push rods. Some owners I have talked to, are convinced that it takes $20-25,000 to build a motor, I have asked why? How many miles are we going to drive these cars in the next 10-15 years, and how do we drive them? Most of us are old enough not to push the cars to the max, nor try and keep up with the newer cars, we just enjoy a nice smooth and reliable driver for sedate touring.

[Al Zim]

Steve: When your rebuilt engine fails because of the influence of worn out ("USED") parts you will be faced with a 20++K rebuild. Or a repeat of your current scenario.
The owners that employ us are aware of the value of their cars, and look at the money as an investimet that in the future will increase in value and will be a secure investment.
You have made a business decision regarding the current and future value of your car Evaluate that decision in light of the articles published in the latest registry. al zim

[Martin Benade]

It is impossible to generalize about used parts. If they are checked rigorously, they can be excellent.
If you open up a three week old $20,000 engine, what’s inside it? Used parts

[Wes Bender]

Unfortunately, "Remove & Replace" has become today's norm. You will even see it in some of the "newby" posts here on the forum where the first thought of the new owner that has a problem is to start replacing parts. When these cars were built, it was expected that repairs would eventually have to be made and they were designed accordingly. A part only needs to be replaced on a 356 when it has reached the point where the wear exceeds to established limit, it is damaged beyond repair or when the owner decides he wants to upgrade the part. For warranty purposes, a shop might wish to use all new parts, but the owner should have some input in that decision.

[Al Zim]

The competent repair facility should be able to explain to the owner (so they clearly understand ) the decisions the shop has suggested for them to follow. al

[Jacques Lefriant]

Al+1
unfortunately some shops may be competent in some areas but lacking sorely in others.
j

[Harlan Halsey]

Unfortunately, the objectives of the professional shop and the competent DYIer differ. The shop wants to shift responsibility to the supplier, hence a bias toward new parts. The shop wants a rebuild to last 20,000 miles, after that years have passed. And the owner who influences the shop recommendations, is taking responsibility for the job. So either you have the shop do it, and hope for the best, or you do it yourself, learn how to do it using the necessary tools and processes. Unfortunately there's no middle ground. In this age of fast fingers on the smart phone, there are fewer DYIers than there used to be.

[Wes Bender]

+1 Harlan. In addition, the shop has to make a profit which can sometimes mean cutting a few corners, while the knowledgeable owner can take the time to do it to his satisfaction.

[Bill Lawless]

Steve, Your Engine Rebuild will not fail... I was told the same thing about something I did, over 3 years later and still running like a top...
That's why used parts are measured!!!

[Steve Douglas]

Bill thanks for the confidence. I put the engine work on hold for a couple of weeks, getting cars ready for Rennsport followed by a So Cal vacation with family. One set of heads are assembled and ready to mock up and check clearances, these will be be my "backup" heads, as they were run on an engine with NPRs before. These are A/B heads that Harry and Jay played with, S-90 intake and 34mm exhaust, and worked well for about 30,000miles, I put in new valves and lapped them in. The S-90s heads are at the machine shop, and probably won't be done for at least 3 weeks.