Fraudulent 356

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Scott Rouleau
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Fraudulent 356

#1 Post by Scott Rouleau »

Hello Porsche friends. I have a friend who has purchased a 356 with serial number 218679 from a dealer in California. The Porsche came with a Kentucky title. Car was sold as a 1965. Does anyone have any thoughts regarding this?

I would appreciate any help you could provide.

Scott

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David Jones
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Re: Fraudulent 356

#2 Post by David Jones »

That would be a late 64 chassis # but it is quite possible the original selling dealer could have said it was a 65 if sold in 65.
If I had known I would live this long I would have pushed the envelope a little harder.
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Scott Rouleau
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Re: Fraudulent 356

#3 Post by Scott Rouleau »

Hi David, thanks for responding so quickly. This is what I thought. The dealer sold the car to a friend and has yet to provide a title. 356 was sold in CA 03/07/2022. They sent her off with a paper plate and that has since expired.

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Sebastian Gaeta
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Re: Fraudulent 356

#4 Post by Sebastian Gaeta »

Based on what you've said I doubt the car is "fraudulent", and as David said it was not uncommon for dealers back then to title a vehicle the next model year if it did not not sell until then. The concerning part is the delay in getting the title. I have no idea which dealer it is so this is not necessarily directed at them, but some of them are living hand to mouth and are paying off liens on cars they sold months ago with the funds from a car they sold recently and are just hoping to catch up one day, sort of a reverse Ponzi scheme as it were.

I would stay on them daily until she gets her *clear* title.
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Registry #8339

'65 C coupe
'64 C cab

-------
2014 Boxster 981
2005 997 C2 Cab
1967 Karmann Ghia Convertible
1966 VW Single Cab
1966 Ducati Cafe Racer
1964 Karmann Ghia Coupe
1963 Beetle

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Adam Wright
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Re: Fraudulent 356

#5 Post by Adam Wright »

Sebastian Gaeta wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:50 pm Based on what you've said I doubt the car is "fraudulent", and as David said it was not uncommon for dealers back then to title a vehicle the next model year if it did not not sell until then. The concerning part is the delay in getting the title. I have no idea which dealer it is so this is not necessarily directed at them, but some of them are living hand to mouth and are paying off liens on cars they sold months ago with the funds from a car they sold recently and are just hoping to catch up one day, sort of a reverse Ponzi scheme as it were.

I would stay on them daily until she gets her *clear* title.
There was a dealer in CT who did something like that, sold a car on consignment, collected the money, but never paid the owner of the car, who still had the title. The new owner had the car, but no title. He had a copy of the title so he tracked down the original owner, who said the dealer said he was waiting to get paid. The original owner was also very surprised to find out his car was not with the dealer but in the new owner's garage. When confronted the dealer made everyone whole.
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Ron LaDow
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Re: Fraudulent 356

#6 Post by Ron LaDow »

Stories abound; neither my buddy nor I could afford the asking price for the gullwing at the time, so he took it back to the seller, but got pulled over on the way. The "Merc" title was for a Mercury...
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Scott Rouleau
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Re: Fraudulent 356

#7 Post by Scott Rouleau »

Ron, what a story.

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Brian R Adams
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Re: Fraudulent 356

#8 Post by Brian R Adams »

My very first 356 was titled and registered as a '58 but was actually M.Y. '59. Also, it was titled under the engine # rather than the chassis #. In that simpler time (early '80s) NV DMV just took my word as gold and corrected the numbers then and there in less than 20 minutes.
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Re: Fraudulent 356

#9 Post by Tony Madsen »

I cannot tell you how many times, I have been promised a title after purchasing an old Porsche. Once the money is in the hands of the seller and the car is gone, sometimes the seller tends to "forget." I always get a bill or sale saying PAID IN FULL & the amount because then the seller cannot say that I didn't pay for it and also for tax purposes. You can withhold some of the purchase price from the seller until the title has been received or picked up. Conversely, I have asked the seller to hold the title, if I did not have quite the amount needed to purchase. Sometime lack of title can also be used as a bargaining chip..."when you find the title, I will send/bring you this amount of $ extra." One more thing...Ask to see the title before the cash is turned over as sellers may "think" they have it, but once you are all loaded up and ready to leave, they could say, "I couldn't find so I have to mail it to you.". If the title is presented to you and lacks the proper signature or the seller filled it out, but never submitted for his own title or the VIN number is incorrect, etc, again use as a bargaining chip or withhold some of the purchase price until matter is resolved. With regard to a dealer, they should have strict rules in that state or commonwealth providing that the buyer is due a title in a certain amount of time. I do not know if it is a civil or criminal issue, but it might be worth consulting an attorney. my 3 cents, anyway. Tony
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Wes Bender
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Re: Fraudulent 356

#10 Post by Wes Bender »

Scott Rouleau wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:21 pm Hello Porsche friends. I have a friend who has purchased a 356 with serial number 218679 from a dealer in California. The Porsche came with a Kentucky title. Car was sold as a 1965. Does anyone have any thoughts regarding this?

I would appreciate any help you could provide.

Scott
It appears the year/model thing has been cleared up OK. You say the car came with a Kentucky title. If it has the release signature on it, she should be able to take that to the DMV and re-title the car in her name. If she's a AAA member they may be able to help do that.

If she did not receive the signed Kentucky title, then she needs to stay on the dealer's case until she receives a good title as stated by others above.
Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.....

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Ron LaDow
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Re: Fraudulent 356

#11 Post by Ron LaDow »

have never heard of a MY/BY discrepancy being an issue, but...
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Wes Bender
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Re: Fraudulent 356

#12 Post by Wes Bender »

MY/BY was part of the early discussion. Agree it isn't an issue with the DMV. They can assign whatever year model suits their fancy and it doesn't seem to matter.
Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.....

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Re: Fraudulent 356

#13 Post by William Block »

from my registry
'64/'64 356C Karmann coupe #218679
616/? P*
741/?C
Color/upholstery?/carpet
Sonderausführung:
Built del
Ken Allison, KY
Apr 02, driver, (Marvin Sime's list)
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1500N coupe #11994
S tractor #133/7622
1600N S/R #106072
356C cab #161564
911 #303269
914/6 2.8 #9140432388 (for sale)
Freda’s Boxster WPOCA2983WS621230

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Bill Sargent
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Re: Fraudulent 356

#14 Post by Bill Sargent »

Interesting that the car was once owned by the late Ken Allison of Kentucky. There was a 2 part article in Sports Car Market in mid 2020 about a Porsche 904 replica built by Ken Allison that he passed off as chassis 904054 for many years. After Mr Allison died of cancer in 2018 his widow started to market the car but the owner of the real car in Germany lawyered up and the Allison car was quickly proved to be a replica - albeit a very accurate one.

So what does this have to do with 356 chassis 218679? Part of the fabricated history of the Allison 904 was a 356C title that had been altered (after Allison died) to say it was the title for 904054. However the altered title was for a C cab 161441. The article stated that 161441 was one of two 356s owned by Allison. So this may be the other one. See the Sports Car Market article here. https://www.sportscarmarket.com/columns ... ne-part-ii

If the Kentucky title has not been signed it might be worth contacting Allison’s widow in Lexington, Kentucky. She may have been the owner.

The replica 904 eventually sold to a buyer in Sweden for about $600K. The chassis and body were scratch built from factory plans but the motor, trans, suspension and most other major parts were original.
Regards,

Bill Sargent
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Scott Rouleau
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Re: Fraudulent 356

#15 Post by Scott Rouleau »

Thank you Bill! Super interesting.

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