1954 pre a

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Cameron Johnson
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Re: 1954 pre a

#61 Post by Cameron Johnson »

Eric Lenius wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:37 pm
Mike Smith wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:14 pm Here is my recap and take on what has been said and suggested

1. Quoted Year of Car – 1954
2. The car is a Coupe
3. Stamped Chassis No. in Front Boot – 23792 (looks original although it is a little straight and clinical)
4. The Chassis No. is stamped onto what appears to be an original 2-Hole VIN. There is no `Made in Western Germany` Badge (below the plate) – (the Plate certainly looks old, original and part of the surrounding patina) – (The image does not show enough of the L/H portion to determine anything else)
5. The Owner says that 356/10 is stamped into the L/H portion of the Plate
6. The Stamped No. on the Front Hood - 66
7. The Engine No. – Not Quoted
8. The Transmission No. – 6842 H3

The only assessments that we can make are
1. That it is not a correct Porsche Chassis Number
2. The number on the hinge plate is 66 – (may be the 2 x last 2 -digits of the real chassis number, although there could have been a hood change
3. It is not a Replacement Body (there are no replacement body numbers in this range - I have them ALL)
4. It is not a car built in South Africa (It does not fit the range of Knock-down cars supplied to S.A. - I have them ALL)
5. It is not a car built in Australia (they did not build any cars in AUS)
6. The VIN Plate appears to be a 1954 or later Plate (Brett states that the Vin Plate changed from 4 x rivets to 2 x rivets in or around July /August 1954) – (We need more of the l/H VIN. Plate to determine more information)
7. It is not an Engine Number (there were no 5-digit) Engine Numbers commencing 23 – the last number in the 20 series run of engines was 22999 – this number was used in 1957) – (Porsche did, on occasions, build engines after the end of a series but it is stretching things too far to assume that they built another 792 and if they did it would have been in 1957/58)
@@@@@
From my records I have the following Transmission Numbers and Build Dates (not a selling date)
10th August 1955 - 6825 H2
12th August 1955 - 6897 H5

Our friends Transmission fits between the two dates but Porsche did not build the cars in sequence so the only thing that we can deduce is that it was a car built between July 1955 and September 1955 - (This assumes that the transmission is original to the car) If it is (?) - it is a 55 car not a 54)

Bill Block has posted a record of transmission 6859 fitted in a Continental dated the 13th September 1955(probably a selling Date) – Note that it is a 55 Car

Just for information - the Summer Holidays in 1955 were - Close down Friday evening on the 12th August and opening Monday morning on the 29th August.

An engine number may help, assuming that it is original to the car and all 3 pieces match.

Happy to be shot down
Aaah,

The VIN stamp in the trunk floor does not appear to be original.

356/10 was stamped on another plate. This car is stamped 356/1500

No engine number has been provided. as an assist, I can tell you that it is a later engine (I've seen the car when it was parked in front of a local repair shop. at least it was described to me as being a later engine.).

Wasn't 66 on the hood rather than the hinge plate?
I have seen this car in person as well.

My observations were that the front hood was A era, engine lid is A or later(dished rain tray) the 2 digit numbers on the doors and hood do not match each other or the "VIN" stampings. The hinge cover plates are missing. I was not able to find numbers on the dash or seat frames. We have some theories about the re-stamped VIN but nothing conclusive. I believe there were some old registration slips with transposed VIN numbers as well, they might be a good clue to work from? I believe the engine is from a 912. This car is a bent window coupe without question but I do suspect that it did not leave the factory with a sunroof.
Last edited by Cameron Johnson on Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Eric Lenius
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Re: 1954 pre a

#62 Post by Eric Lenius »

Jeff Kutz wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:08 pm
Eric Lenius wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:37 pm
Mike Smith wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:14 pm Here is my recap and take on what has been said and suggested

1. Quoted Year of Car – 1954
2. The car is a Coupe
3. Stamped Chassis No. in Front Boot – 23792 (looks original although it is a little straight and clinical)
4. The Chassis No. is stamped onto what appears to be an original 2-Hole VIN. There is no `Made in Western Germany` Badge (below the plate) – (the Plate certainly looks old, original and part of the surrounding patina) – (The image does not show enough of the L/H portion to determine anything else)
5. The Owner says that 356/10 is stamped into the L/H portion of the Plate
6. The Stamped No. on the Front Hood - 66
7. The Engine No. – Not Quoted
8. The Transmission No. – 6842 H3

The only assessments that we can make are
1. That it is not a correct Porsche Chassis Number
2. The number on the hinge plate is 66 – (may be the 2 x last 2 -digits of the real chassis number, although there could have been a hood change
3. It is not a Replacement Body (there are no replacement body numbers in this range - I have them ALL)
4. It is not a car built in South Africa (It does not fit the range of Knock-down cars supplied to S.A. - I have them ALL)
5. It is not a car built in Australia (they did not build any cars in AUS)
6. The VIN Plate appears to be a 1954 or later Plate (Brett states that the Vin Plate changed from 4 x rivets to 2 x rivets in or around July /August 1954) – (We need more of the l/H VIN. Plate to determine more information)
7. It is not an Engine Number (there were no 5-digit) Engine Numbers commencing 23 – the last number in the 20 series run of engines was 22999 – this number was used in 1957) – (Porsche did, on occasions, build engines after the end of a series but it is stretching things too far to assume that they built another 792 and if they did it would have been in 1957/58)
@@@@@
From my records I have the following Transmission Numbers and Build Dates (not a selling date)
10th August 1955 - 6825 H2
12th August 1955 - 6897 H5

Our friends Transmission fits between the two dates but Porsche did not build the cars in sequence so the only thing that we can deduce is that it was a car built between July 1955 and September 1955 - (This assumes that the transmission is original to the car) If it is (?) - it is a 55 car not a 54)

Bill Block has posted a record of transmission 6859 fitted in a Continental dated the 13th September 1955(probably a selling Date) – Note that it is a 55 Car

Just for information - the Summer Holidays in 1955 were - Close down Friday evening on the 12th August and opening Monday morning on the 29th August.

An engine number may help, assuming that it is original to the car and all 3 pieces match.

Happy to be shot down
Aaah,

The VIN stamp in the trunk floor does not appear to be original.

356/10 was stamped on another plate. This car is stamped 356/1500

No engine number has been provided. as an assist, I can tell you that it is a later engine (I've seen the car when it was parked in front of a local repair shop. at least it was described to me as being a later engine.).

Wasn't 66 on the hood rather than the hinge plate?
Thanks Eric,As I stated the KG plate took me three days to degrease with a tooth brush to get to this level, I would be surprised if it is not original with the car, so assuming that it is, the question would be a how did it get the # 23792 and there is no question that this is a bent windshield coupe.. Eric, as you live close to the car, perhaps come out and take a look?? Thanks Jeff
Jeff,

I could certainly come out and look. I only saw the exterior one day in Gorst.

Eric L.

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Alan Hall
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Re: 1954 pre a

#63 Post by Alan Hall »

Been following this with interest, and am ready to propose a theory (based on nothing!). It certainly seems that this car was not originally built by Porsche with this chassis number. But the age of the "VIN" plate and the look of the front chassis stamping suggests the change was made a long time ago. There really is no reason to suspect any bad intention to stamp these numbers, because they are apparently meaningless. The number used does not, apparently, correspond to a replacement chassis from Porsche. So....my proposal is that the car was severely damaged in the front end and was returned to Porsche for repair around 1955, the damage was severe enough to require a whole new front but not a complete chassis, and the factory chose to identify this rebuilt chassis with a number different than the original chassis number...so what number to use? Perhaps the number used was the repair order number (or work order number), 23792. So does anyone have any data on what numbers were used on Porsche repair orders?

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Jules Dielen
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Re: 1954 pre a

#64 Post by Jules Dielen »

If only we knew the real number, we could potentially find out where it was sold new...there are records to all the replacement bodies.
Jules

Water pumps are for windshield washers only.

Jeff Kutz
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Re: 1954 pre a

#65 Post by Jeff Kutz »

Alan Hall wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:35 pm Been following this with interest, and am ready to propose a theory (based on nothing!). It certainly seems that this car was not originally built by Porsche with this chassis number. But the age of the "VIN" plate and the look of the front chassis stamping suggests the change was made a long time ago. There really is no reason to suspect any bad intention to stamp these numbers, because they are apparently meaningless. The number used does not, apparently, correspond to a replacement chassis from Porsche. So....my proposal is that the car was severely damaged in the front end and was returned to Porsche for repair around 1955, the damage was severe enough to require a whole new front but not a complete chassis, and the factory chose to identify this rebuilt chassis with a number different than the original chassis number...so what number to use? Perhaps the number used was the repair order number (or work order number), 23792. So does anyone have any data on what numbers were used on Porsche repair orders?
Thanks Alan, this theory seems to be as plausible as anything and may be as far as we can take this. The vehicle is legally registered in Washington State with this VIN, and this exercise for me anyway, was just to put it out there, and this may be the end of the road. I heard one explanation that the car was made for the Queen of Sheba and she wanted to keep it priceless,(kidding) My future plans are just use it as a driver, maybe sell it one day and disclose what we have discovered so far.. No looking to get rich, just looking for information or possible theory such as yours.. Unless we can borrow a time machine, I may never know... Thanks Jeff
Its a blast to drive, going forward when people ask ,what kind of car this is ? I have to say Porsche, I think!

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Re: 1954 pre a

#66 Post by Jeff Kutz »

As a adder to above the fact that these ##s may not make any sense to me (or others) it has ) 0% effect for me a the enjoyment of the car. I have $4500.00 in the car to purchase, so if this has adverse effect on the current market value, so be it.. I feel these cars were produced for the open road... Thanks again Jeff

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James Davies
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Re: 1954 pre a

#67 Post by James Davies »

That's the spirit Jeff.

That said, it would be very interesting to find out why your numbers are so wack.

I'll add here that I disagree with others on the chassis stamping under the spare tire. It looks totally fine to me. All the stamps look like others used in 1954. For reference, I've seen both styles of "3" used in this area - flat topped and round topped.

In order to find out more, you're going to have to do more archaeology on the car. Or get a very experienced pre-A person to look it over with a fine-tooth comb.

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Re: 1954 pre a

#68 Post by Jeff Kutz »

Any idea where may contact a "very experienced per-A person?" seems like a lot of 356 knowledge in this group ,certainly more than mine. I would pay a reasonable fee and perhaps travel for this individual or group Thanks Jeff

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Jules Dielen
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Re: 1954 pre a

#69 Post by Jules Dielen »

Hey Jeff, where are you located? There are a few pre A gurus in the US. James Davies is one of them lol
Jules

Water pumps are for windshield washers only.

Jeff Kutz
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Re: 1954 pre a

#70 Post by Jeff Kutz »

Sorry for the delayed response ,Jules I'm (and the vehicle) is located in Western Washington State. Seattle area. Willing to explore all travel options however.. Thanks Jeff

Alfred Knittel
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Re: 1954 pre a

#71 Post by Alfred Knittel »

Western Washington. I am not a pre A gurus but I have had my 54 bent window for some thirty years. And is sitting in Kent Washington right now.
1954 coup
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Re: 1954 pre a

#72 Post by Mike DeJonge »

Cool picture of assembly of speedster in Congo Don. I have been to the Congo 7 or 8 times in the last 10 years and have never seen a VW or a Porsche there, but other numerous cool vehicles. Your picture made me go deep into the internet searching for Difoc and the D'letern brand in the congo. looks like they had a major dealership in Kinshasha on the west coast, while I was always in the eastern part close to Uganda
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Albert Haefner
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Re: 1954 pre a

#73 Post by Albert Haefner »

VIN is 54066 and Gearbox matche swith the car! albert-haefner (at) t-online.de
 

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James Davies
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Re: 1954 pre a

#74 Post by James Davies »

Nice detective work Albert. Now the mystery is why it was renumbered and why the new Porsche KG chassis data plate was labelled 1954, when it was really 1955. The chassis data plate also has 2 rivets, which was a change from 4 rivets sometime between coupes 52162 and 52202, so June/July 1954. So we know the renumbering took place after that, so consistent with a 1955 date.

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Al Zim
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Re: 1954 pre a

#75 Post by Al Zim »

UNUSUAL things happen in business. Recently there was a post looking for a 1955 engine. I have one. I dug around in the warehouse for it it was right where it was suppose to be. BUT the engine had a 1955 April VW chassis number on it instead of the Porsche number (This was a years go deduction, with notes in a plastic bag on the engine. Cars were identified by their engine number in 1955. The owner (management at Porsche) pulls an engine so he can go down the road faster and has it stamped with the VIN of the VW. How did it get to the US who knows? You cannot win a Concurs if the engine does not match!
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