Letter of Authenticity vs Kardex Correctness

For those who obsess about exactly how their 356 left the factory!
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Robert Vinson
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Letter of Authenticity vs Kardex Correctness

#1 Post by Robert Vinson »

I am a long term owner of a 63 S 90 Cab, purchased in 1989. When requested from Porsche, they stated Vin # 157561 was a 1962 S 90 Cab. Per the Kardex, the release date was Nov 20, 1962 and the Acceptance date was Jan 24, 1963.
My Kardex shows the engine number of 609 831 but my engine installed is a proper S 90 engine,dated from July 1962-Dec 31, 1962, P-806024. The car has a S 90 tach and proper camber compensator. Records going back to the early 70s do not reveal any engine swaps or problems.
Extended discussion with Dr Brett Johnson leaves us puzzled.
Was the original Kardex engine wrong? This is uncommon but certainly a possibility.
If an engine was swapped early after purchase,how does one get an engine perfectly matched for that year and S 90 configuration ? Also, if the car had a 1600 N engine, then why the S 90 tach and Camber Compensator.
Comments from the Experts are appreciated.
Thanks…

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Doug McDonnell
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Re: Letter of Authenticity vs Kardex Correctness

#2 Post by Doug McDonnell »

Was the information from Porsche directly from Porsche in Germany or on a COA? And did you obtain this information yourself ? Or were you given it by the auction house? By date range I would expect Porsche to refer to your car as a 1963 not 1962. Where was the car originally sold? Do all case matching numbers match? There are documented cases of swaps at the dealer to make a sale. On the main website go to Technical and scroll down to Factory mumbers then on that page scroll down and find on the left side the Taillights article "Much Ado about Matching" by Ray Morgan where he mentions this dealer practice. Sometimes these changes were documented on the Kardex above the original information. I contacted Bill Block to see if he has any old documentation on your car. Perhaps he has something to contribute.
1965 356C 2000 BMW 740i Sport 1967 Honda CL77 There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.

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Doug McDonnell
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Re: Letter of Authenticity vs Kardex Correctness

#3 Post by Doug McDonnell »

Old Norm Miller entry" Re: wheels
#20 Post by Norm Miller » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:24 pm

Considering the wheels are normally covered with hubcaps isn't the month unimportant?
Those who don't run hubcaps probably don't care.

In the day we at dealerships did indeed make many changes for the buyer due to a long order wait and lack of a large inventory.
Even engines were swapped the change from Super to Normal etc. Radio swaps not to mention dealer installed items, fog lights, antennas, mirrors, seats with corduroy to vinyl to leather.

The kardex did indeed state as produced but not much is known about delivery condition.

Norm"
1965 356C 2000 BMW 740i Sport 1967 Honda CL77 There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.

Robert Vinson
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Re: Letter of Authenticity vs Kardex Correctness

#4 Post by Robert Vinson »

I purchased the auto from the Barrett Jackson Auction in Jan 1989. I realize that late 62s were usually sold as 1963 models.I have no problem with that, very common occurrence.
I contacted Porsche of America, and in June, 1989 received a typed letter, from Franz Doerr, Manager of Consumer Affairs, stating vin number 157561 is a1962 1600 S90. He went on to state that Continental Tires were the only listed option.
So, the real issue is the Kardex Engine Number shows a 1600 N engine,(609831) however everything else on my car indicates it is a S90 model (Engine. P 806024, S90 Tach, S 90 Fan Shroud, and Camber Compensator)
The Kardex correctly indicates my Ivory Color (6204 B), Correct Key numbers, and delivery to Arizona First Buyer. The car remained in sunny Arizona from Jan 1963 until January 1989, when I brought it East.
So that is the quandary ….

Robert Vinson
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Re: Letter of Authenticity vs Kardex Correctness

#5 Post by Robert Vinson »

Car delivered to Competition Motors, Culver City, Ca and sold to a Mr Donald M., from Scottsdale Arizona.

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Doug McDonnell
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Re: Letter of Authenticity vs Kardex Correctness

#6 Post by Doug McDonnell »

Competition Motors was probably the distributor as they were for all of Southern California,Nevada and Arizona. Any dealer in their Distribution area could have sold the car when new, even Morgensen Motors in Pheonix. While a dealer swap of equipment when new is possible it would probably have been reported to Porsche for warranty purposes and be noted on the Kardex. Certainly another possibility is an owner prior to you swapped in engine, tachometer and Camber Compensator from an S90-maybe a wrecked one. In this link you can see the Kardex of a 64C that left the factory with an SC engine but had a C engine swapped in prior to 1st sale Note the notation of swap at the top hand written in. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53809&p=403359&hili ... ex#p403359 Dealers did whatever it took to make a sale.
Attachments
Dealer swapped engine 130657 Kardex.jpg
1965 356C 2000 BMW 740i Sport 1967 Honda CL77 There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.

Robert Vinson
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Re: Letter of Authenticity vs Kardex Correctness

#7 Post by Robert Vinson »

Thanks, very puzzling.
At least I have the correct engine and associated equipment for S 90 Authenticity .
Amazing someone would have the expertise and luck to find and install the appropriate equipment.

I, for one, think that the Kardex was wrong from the start, and someone put the wrong Engine Number for this car.
When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, less likely Zebras…just my thoughts

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Doug McDonnell
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Re: Letter of Authenticity vs Kardex Correctness

#8 Post by Doug McDonnell »

I think I would waste $180 or so and get a new Kardex from David Pateman or another Kardex provider. If that still shows what the older Kardex does I would write Porsche and include copies of the previous letter and kardex. But 1st for a quick check of original engine there is a service provided by Marco Marinello on his elevenparts website. https://www.elevenparts.com/type.php
1965 356C 2000 BMW 740i Sport 1967 Honda CL77 There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.

Robert Vinson
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Re: Letter of Authenticity vs Kardex Correctness

#9 Post by Robert Vinson »

When I received the Porsche Letter, accompanied it was a partial copy of the Kardex, which showed the same wrong Engine Number.
I recently paid David for another one, same results.
I think I am going to let things lie, the key factors having the S 90 engine and associated equipment in my 356.
Thanks for your comments.

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Doug McDonnell
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Re: Letter of Authenticity vs Kardex Correctness

#10 Post by Doug McDonnell »

The fact that the letter you received in 89 from Porsche metioned it was a 62 S90 leads me to believe that parts were swapped when new to make a Normal into an S90 to get a sale. Not sure how Porsche would state S90 on a 62 with a Normal engine on the Kardex otherwise. Maybe the Kardex notation wasn't added like in my example above? Considering the difference in worth today I would again contact Porsche including a copy of the 1989 letter and see how Porsche Customer Service responds to your inquiry?
1965 356C 2000 BMW 740i Sport 1967 Honda CL77 There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.

Robert Vinson
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Re: Letter of Authenticity vs Kardex Correctness

#11 Post by Robert Vinson »

I sent an inquiry to Porsche Classic, no word yet.
Thank goodness the car has the correct S 90 engine and all the proper S90 components (trans, Tach, shroud, and Camber Compensator)
. That is the most important details for this automobile .

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Jules Dielen
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Re: Letter of Authenticity vs Kardex Correctness

#12 Post by Jules Dielen »

Maybe a prior owner found the 60hp a bit slow and changed the engine, the camber compensator and the tach with those from another car to get a bit more ooph and 'better' handling. It can all be done in a few hours.

If it was done at the factory or under warranty at the dealer it would show on the Kardex, as that is what the warranty claims are recorded on. They could not claim s90 parts on a normal.

I have seen more than a few questionable letters from Porsche. If you ask them for details starting with "I have a 1962 356 super 90" often enough they will pretty much write anything.

I am sure if you ask Dave P kindly, he can tell you that your engine P-806024 originally lived in a coupe.
Jules

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