1956 356 "GT"

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Trond Vidar
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"

#151 Post by Trond Vidar » Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:40 pm

I ended up cutting the muffler about 2 inches out, the metal was quite thin compared to the J-pipe and the muffler had seen lots of hammering in the past but still useable. I will get new pipe and tackweld in place and finish off with a seam weld, cut the slits, anti seize and tighten.

The rattle can wear off so fast I think I will go with Hammerite smooth black. Fan house is bathing in kerosene and it may be nice enough when it is all cleaned. I dont mind patina.

The black pieces were painted a few years ago, the rest was blasted with a mix of jetmag and glass
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'56A coupe & '63B coupe

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Harlan Halsey
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"

#152 Post by Harlan Halsey » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:21 am

Maybe I should be more specific. Rattle can paints vary a lot. I use RustOleum Semi Gloss Black enamel. Probably not available over there. But wear-longevity hasn't been an issue with this stuff. Many have used powder coat but the extra thickness tends to cause problems with fit. My SC has been apart maybe 3-4 times in its 200,000 miles and the sheet metal fits well. But for others like the '56 project, assembled out of parts of several engines, I find it prudent to dry fit after paint stripping, weld and drill where needed, and only then paint.
Good Luck

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Trond Vidar
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"

#153 Post by Trond Vidar » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:36 am

Thank you Harlan, I used a strong low gloss enamel and decent semi gloss rattle can on top. I will order that rustoleum for future projects but can only get it by seafreight (6 weeks).
I may restore and paint the fan-housing and the upper tin in the winter but right now I just want that bearing and put the car together, the season is short over here.
'56A coupe & '63B coupe

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Trond Vidar
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"

#154 Post by Trond Vidar » Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:45 am

New clutch bearing got here after 2 weeks (1 at customs :( ) and engine is now ready to install. Did not bother much about the fan house, just cleaned for now. I will move the car and the engine to my 1 post lift for engine installation.
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Small problem :)
Memory is not what it used to be, where does this angled iron go? Or maybe it is for my Testarossa, it is being assembled as well and the tabetop is slightly mixed.
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I am also planning to leave the pre heating out, I dont need it as I dont drive this car in cold weather. (#15 to 21 in the diagram)

Image

If I remove #11 as well I could just make some round blanking plates in #38, any considerations on that conclusion?
'56A coupe & '63B coupe

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Trond Vidar
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"

#155 Post by Trond Vidar » Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:56 am

Thank you Vincent, it is now identified as #54
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'56A coupe & '63B coupe

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Harlan Halsey
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"

#156 Post by Harlan Halsey » Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:51 am

I always leave the heating out as I don't need it here. Leave out #s 11, and 15-21. Cap off the heater box, 12, and the chassis tubes and blank off the holes in #38 with flat plates. Adds simplicity and saves a bit of weight.

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Trond Vidar
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"

#157 Post by Trond Vidar » Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:27 am

Thanks Harlan, I will cap off the heater boxes as well. I use the heater spring and fall if the temp is below 10 Celsius.

I did install the engine yesterday and there were problems. I never thoroughly checked the 2 bearings against each other, they seemed to be similar.

After installing the bearing I noticed my clutch pedal had raised 2 inches and the fork/lever was all up against the chassis and clutch is constantly released.
Engine is seated correctly and the only matter I can think about is that the new "60-63" bearing is deeper / different.

Any idea what could be the problem, B, C clutch / bearing mix? #4 is touching the chassi, indicating #5 the fork is pushed way back but still the clutch is released

Image

The engine has to come out again, the '63 is matching numbers and pretty sure the tranny is the original one.

New bearing installed,I wiped down the anti seize before the engine slid in.
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'56A coupe & '63B coupe

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Harlan Halsey
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"

#158 Post by Harlan Halsey » Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:27 am

I tired of messing with this problem so now I measure the depth of the TO bearing from he mating surface and the height of the pressure plate TO contact above the mating surface, clutch cable detached. The clutch pedal mechanical advantage is about 10:1 so for 1" pedal free play there should be .1" (2,54mm) clearance. After installation I adjust the cutch. 2.5mm is a bare minimum because as the drive disk wears, the free play will decrease. The disk wear limit is less than 2mm so you actually want another 2mm clearance for a total of about 4mm. When these 356s were nearly new we got away with just swapping parts, but now 50 years later more measurement is prudent. As is a look at the bowing tube and the clutch cable. Good Luck.

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Trond Vidar
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"

#159 Post by Trond Vidar » Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:58 pm

OK, engine split from transmission and bearing is out. The new bearing is is 9 mm "longer" from mating surface to where it sit in the fork, not sure about the length (ratio) of lever arm vs fork, 1:2?

Cable + clevis look to give adjustment possibilities up to maybe 2.5 cm but not much more. The lever did not hit the body, my bad it it was just the sound insulation pad hanging loose.

That is a 9 mm difference, the old one is a C bearing (to the right) not? "Ears" on both sides vs only one side for the B bearing?
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Look like they put a nyloc nut on this one, 3.4 threads and a thinner regular nut could give close to 15 mm.
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The cable is all the way in, loosening it should be another 10 mm+
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Lesson learned, check the bearing before install.
'56A coupe & '63B coupe

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Trond Vidar
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"

#160 Post by Trond Vidar » Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:12 pm

The '63 is all back together but cranking power is weak. The new pilot bearing is in, the old one was not that bad at all could not see ovality by eye. I tried 3 different starer motors (0.5hp) with little difference from before.

To rule out bad ignition lock or wiring I tested on the lift, from underside of car with a jumper cable from the power supply on starter to solenoid. New ground strap and fresh contacts.

Two of these starters behaved identically in the '56 coupe, make me think the starters are worn out. One of them was said to be rebuilt and in good order. The one that came in the '63 was always slow cranking, had to open the throttles to make it happy.

Solution - gear reduction starter?
I enjoy the "nostalgic originality" from the 6V system but these starter issues make me wanna go 12 Volt. I am in a dilemma, the gear reduction starter for 6V is quite expensive compared to the 12V. If I buy a 6V gear reduction starter it will be more expensive than getting a 12 V starter, a 12V alternator + needed accessories for conversion.

Top of that, has anyone tested the 6V gear reduction starter? How many amps will it draw, maybe it is a slow cranker as well? :shock:

I want to get out and drive, conversion or should I get a quality rebuilt 6V starter?
'56A coupe & '63B coupe

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Harlan Halsey
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"

#161 Post by Harlan Halsey » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:00 am

Trond,
All my 6v 356s start easily. I drove the "62 B Winter and Summer in Boston for about 75,000 miles. (Rather to the detriment of the cars body.) Nothing wrong with the 6v system. However for my current '56 project I decided to go 12v LED because of the weak beehive tail lights. Switching to 12v has been a lot more work than I thought it would be. I thought I solved the starter issue with one of those 12v WOSP geared, no bushing, starters. That WOSP chewed up the edge of the flywheel and made a racket doing it. I sent it back. A 12v solenoid on a 6v Bosch starter works fine now.
The Bosch starter used on most if not all German cars has a lever pulled by a solenoid which engages the pinion and ring gear before power is applied. No chewing up the edge of the ring gear. Bendix, and I believe the new geared starters, apply power as the pinion is moving into engagement. This tends to chew up the edge of the ring gear when the initial alignment is poor. That is why English and older American cars have replaceable ring gears.

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Trond Vidar
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"

#162 Post by Trond Vidar » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:56 am

Harlan, I went the same way with the '56 coupe and converted to 12 volt, using a geared starter from the UK as well, either powerlite or wosp. I have not tested whether it move out and engage the starter ring before it start turning. With this setup the 56 is very easy to start, I use LED bulbs for the beehives.

The hard starting '63, I found rebuild kits for 6V starters and may try that at first, it cost around 90 Euro, a little more in the US.
Starter rebuild kit 6V, set fits on all 6 volt starters with the round solenoid, for 356A, 356B and 356C
1x Gear with drive
1x Solenoid cap
1x Brush set (4 pieces)
2x Bushings
Anyone had luck with one of these kits?
'56A coupe & '63B coupe

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Harlan Halsey
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"

#163 Post by Harlan Halsey » Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:35 am

I've never tried a kit but the key to any electric motor or generator function is a good smooth armature and brushes to match. If your armature is not good, the kit won't do you much good. If the armature is good, then usually brushes, solenoid, and bearings will do it. I guess the message is: disassemble and check the parts to see what you need. If the armature needs turning, then take it to a motor shop and have it done, that doesn't cost much and they should check the armature for electrical function with a "growler".
I used to pull the starter or generator in the morning and drop it off a Auto Electric about 10 AM. My wife would pick it up in the afternoon on her way home from work. Cost about $100. Back in the car by supper. Auto Electric, like much else useful in California, is gone now.

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Trond Vidar
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"

#164 Post by Trond Vidar » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:26 am

I left the battery in the car for a charge over the weekend, cleaned up the positiv pole on the battery and the '63 cranked slightly better than it used to, not great like my '66 Beetle used to do but still, if I can rebuild the starter during the winter I will prefer to have the car that way.

To get a better understanding of the old starters I decided to take apart one of spares and learn more about it and assess its condition.

Well spent time. Forgot to take pix of the armature but it was not very nice, turning would be beneficial. I tested using 400 grit paper in hand and turn the armature around while pressing slightly and it does clean up even if it does not come out completely "true". I guess turning the armature and installing new brushes will result in a larger contact area, subsequently more current can pass through?

The solenoid is another story, tested the electromagnetic function of it and it was very responsive. I suppose it is the amount of current that is important and I do not have equipment to test the draw so all I could see is that it is working. To split open I had to unsolder the wiring in the rear of the solenoid.

The solenoid push a bar that closes the power to the starter motor. The bar is seen in the picture. The plastic end piece of the solenoid has the contact points, these seem to be grooved by design but the bar seem to have burnt grooves into it.

I had already removed a little of the burnt soot/carbon before taking the photo, it was basically only the grooved part that were shiny. I am sure this piece need to make good contact to give the starter max power.

Qualified service; I have the same problem over here, nobody seem to do rebuilds on old electronics anymore.

This spare will undergo a DIY service. I will test to turn the armature by hand with 400 grit paper, use the old brushes (looked like 75% left), turn the bar and sand it so it shines and see what it does for an old starter. Installing it in the '63 with a fresh battery and check cranking power will be interesting.

The solenoid on the contact breaker side, the black end cap has a hole in it that need be filled or glued.
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Turn the bar around and I am sure it can be sanded to "as new" giving a better contact path that the grooved side.
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The small pieces securing the bar to the solenoid shaft, mostly usable with a little service.
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'56A coupe & '63B coupe

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Trond Vidar
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"

#165 Post by Trond Vidar » Sun Aug 08, 2021 5:08 am

All assembled I manage to take the car for a spin, had a small stop after 25 miles and it would hardly crank. Push started and drove home.

The scenery was nice and with an upcoming downhill I dared to stop on idle for a photo.
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Maybe the battery let me down, I am going to check the voltage from charging system but getting very suspicious about the battery.
The battery was a new quality battery 3 years ago, always charged with 3 months intervals when car stored. I also have a cutoff switch in the car that I use all the time I park it. :(

Considering li-ion from Antigravity batteries, any information on those at 28A and 240CC, may need two in parallell?
'56A coupe & '63B coupe

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