356A 60mm ventilated backing plates

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bil brown
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356A 60mm ventilated backing plates

#1 Post by bil brown » Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:47 pm

I am looking for info on 356A 60mm backing plates. I have two original front 356A plates, both different, one has a longer scoop and riveted screen and scoop. I`ve seen the earlier 550 plates and they are different, starting out as Pre-A plates. Both these plates started out as standard 356A plates, then modified by Porsche. Anyone know which one of these is the earlier plate......my guess is the riveted plate. Would be nice to find original matches for these plates, but I`m not hopeful. I will prolly make a match for each with some help from the tin shop here who did all my 60mm repro plates years ago. Add any pics of 356A 60mm plates if you have some.
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Martin Benade
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Re: 356A 60mm ventilated backing plates

#2 Post by Martin Benade » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:48 pm

Was the window screen a factory feature? Soldered on?
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bil brown
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Re: 356A 60mm ventilated backing plates

#3 Post by bil brown » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:51 pm

Yes, screen was a factory feature of 60mm plates.....some soldered, some riveted. Both plates are factory original.
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Joris Koning
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Re: 356A 60mm ventilated backing plates

#4 Post by Joris Koning » Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:11 am

Bill,

I posted a similar question some time back. Concensus was that the riveted plates are indeed the earlier ones.

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Re: 356A 60mm ventilated backing plates

#5 Post by Justin Rio » Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:52 am

Hi Bill,

Here's an old shot of a 4-cam package I bought in the late 2000's.
540 2637.jpg
540 2637.jpg (186.64 KiB) Viewed 1966 times
The rear backing plates where someone's creation but the fronts where original 550 spyder. Has the heavy gauge center spine for the cylinders to work off of as you describe and notice no slot provision for the later bleeder screw; Early plates. Of course not set up to accept the spacer blocks for the big brakes. Scoops where spot welded on (no rivets on the inner face here) They where very shallow compared to the later A versions and the screens where soldered. I'll try to find more photos of them.
carrera 319.JPG
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I bought this complete set of Carrera brakes that were removed from the same GT Speedster many years ago when a set of Rudges were installed. Interesting part is that the rears are riveted while the fronts are soldered.
carrera 324.JPG
carrera 324.JPG (684.26 KiB) Viewed 1966 times
You can see the rear drum is a GT version with ventilation and reinforcement dowels around the spline. Its a T2 drum with integrated oil slinger. Everything points to a later T2 application.
carrera 325.JPG
carrera 325.JPG (641.77 KiB) Viewed 1966 times
Soldered and spot welded front.
carrera 322.JPG
carrera 322.JPG (682.32 KiB) Viewed 1966 times
Between the early Spyder plates and this set I can't see riveted versus soldered being an early or a late feature. It seems it was just whatever the works department happened to be turning out at the moment... Justin

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Re: 356A 60mm ventilated backing plates

#6 Post by Michael Doyle » Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:27 pm

On the subject .. with this question:

Shown are 1957 Werkes GT front backing plates about to be restored. The Rears are ventilated as well. The cylinder mount opening shape is a different on the upper compared to the lower one. Also, the upper has small steel tube pieces welded in on both sides as well. I’m trying to recall what these small tubes are for?

As background, a number of Spyder features were added to this particular factory Carrera GT. Any thoughts? Thanks.
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Re: 356A 60mm ventilated backing plates

#7 Post by bil brown » Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:46 am

I`ve never seen those "tubes" before.
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Re: 356A 60mm ventilated backing plates

#8 Post by Michael Doyle » Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:42 am

bil brown wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:46 am
I`ve never seen those "tubes" before.
I haven’t either.

The Backing plates are original to this GT prepared by von Hanstein and Edgar Barth in the Porsche Werkes department. Barth and von Frankenberg were the co-drivers. Does anyone see a resemblance of this Backing plate with tubes to a 550 or 550A Spyder? Thanks.

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Re: 356A 60mm ventilated backing plates

#9 Post by Joris Koning » Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:26 pm

Michael,

The quality of the work would make me think those are not a factory modification.
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Re: 356A 60mm ventilated backing plates

#10 Post by Michael Doyle » Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:00 pm

Joris Koning wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:26 pm
Michael,

The quality of the work would make me think those are not a factory modification.
Hi Joris,

After Porsche Werkes raced this Carrera in 1957 they sold it to German driving champion Hans Joachim Walter. He won the 1958 German Grand Prix at Nurburgring with this Carrera and won many Rallyes as well.

I too, like you, am thinking HJ Walter may have done the Backing Plate steel tube modification .. the welds are not that great, but I don’t know what the purpose was? Just on one side.

If only cars could talk … any and all comments and ideas are appreciated. Thanks.

Michael Doyle
Last edited by Michael Doyle on Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 356A 60mm ventilated backing plates

#11 Post by Michael Doyle » Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:09 pm

Michael Doyle wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:00 pm
Joris Koning wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:26 pm
Michael,

The quality of the work would make me think those are not a factory modification.
Hi Joris,

After Porsche Werkes raced this Carrera in 1957 they sold it to German driving champion Hans Joakim Walter. He won the 1958 German Grand Prix at Nurburgring with this Carrera and won many Rallyes as well.

I too, like you, am thinking HJ Walter may have done the Backing Plate steel tube modification .. the welds are not that great, but I don’t know what the purpose was? Just on one side.

If only cars could talk … any and all comments and ideas are appreciated. Thanks.

Michael Doyle
Recent comments from a German Porsche connection:

“Strange ... They are two different sheets (plates). The upper one is from VorA (PreA) recognizable by the round cams on the brake pad. The lower one is a later version of the normal A model. What the soldered tubes mean is beyond my knowledge.”
But:
“Behind it sits exactly the wheel for the brake lining adjustment, possible that a spring with a pin was mounted there to hold the wheel in position from the rear. The normal spring steel sheets (holders) are usually already bent after the first readjustment, perhaps you wanted to prevent the brake from adjusting by itself in tough racing conditions.”
“That's what you win races with, the Porsche factor, so to speak, or, better yet, resourceful mechanics with brainpower.”

“The different brake anchor plates are certainly due to an accident or an earlier repair ... who knows what has happened to them in the last 60 years.”

————————————————-

Fyi: His observations are onto something, as historically the right side did have the 60mm front brake drum replaced from an accident. The left drum is still original with interesting modifications done to it as well. My thinking leans toward replacement parts on right front were made by a subsequent owner (after Werkes / HJ Walter) and not modified to match the left side.

Any and all thoughts or comments are welcome. Thanks.

Michael Doyle

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Re: 356A 60mm ventilated backing plates

#12 Post by Jeff Adams » Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:05 am

The larger openings for the brake bleeder screws and mysterious added tubes look like they were done sometime after the car was new. I don't think either modification was done as a performance enhancement.

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Re: 356A 60mm ventilated backing plates

#13 Post by Michael Doyle » Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:44 am

Jeff Adams wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:05 am
The larger openings for the brake bleeder screws and mysterious added tubes look like they were done sometime after the car was new. I don't think either modification was done as a performance enhancement.
May not be done for braking performance, but perhaps for “shortening time” in the pits allowing for a faster brake shoe adjustment with hole access on the backside of the backing plate?

There has to be a reason for these steel tube access holes … and the line up of them to the inner brake shoe adjustment wheels. Either for adjustment purpose or to have a lock pin securing the adjustment wheel from loosening. The backing plate itself was stated to be a modified PreA type … I’d like to also compare it to a 550 / 550A Spyder backing plate.

I mentioned Hans Joakim “HJ” Walter bought this Carrera GT from Porsche Werkes. He won Championship Races and Rallyes with this car. He was in the circle of top drivers and mechanics such as one co-driver, Paul Strahle, and factory tech-driver Herbert Linge.

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Re: 356A 60mm ventilated backing plates

#14 Post by Dave Merz » Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:24 pm

Hi Michael,

Like Bill, I've never seen those tubes before. For what purpose is anybody's guess. Quality of welds certainly suggests Porsche never did it. If restoring them I'd eliminate them. My '56 GT has riveted screens and scoops front and rear. Front bleeder holes look just like the one on the right in Bill's pic.
Rear holes are not opened up like the fronts. This car was entered by Porsche for the '57 Sebring race and piloted by von Hanstein and Herbert Linge. It's whereabouts after that race is unknown. I'm guessing it must've been sold to a privateer and raced on the East Coast afterwards but it's history after Sebring
is unknown until it surfaced in the Los Angeles area sometime in the 80's. Any help from any of you 4 cam guys in shedding light on it's history after Sebring would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Dave

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Re: 356A 60mm ventilated backing plates

#15 Post by Michael Doyle » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:00 pm

Thanks for all the comments so far. And thanks to Bill Brown for the use his posted topic here for my related subject.

This Werkes Carrera GT (no.48 below - no.75 bottom) is being restored for its two significant points in time ownership. As the Porsche factory winning 1957 12 hours of Reims car .. and as the 1958 HJ Walter German driving championship car. All documented modifications made by Walter will be kept as the top German and European drivers at this time knew many things to do to win Races and Rallyes.
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