Bob Garretson's idea 3 piece Carrera Cylinder Head work completed.

Discussion of 4-Cam Type 547 engines (and all the Fuhrmann racing variants) and cars that powered them.
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Richard Emerson
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Re: Bob Garretson's idea 3 piece Carrera Cylinder Head work completed.

#31 Post by Richard Emerson » Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:40 pm

I have a low mileage 1500 roller bearing that I wouldn’t mind protecting. If there was a case and the ability to build up another motor I’d be interested. It would have to appear basically stock.

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Ibrahim Kuzu
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Re: Bob Garretson's idea 3 piece Carrera Cylinder Head work completed.

#32 Post by Ibrahim Kuzu » Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:18 pm

We have The engine Case and rest for building you a 1500 or 1600 cc with your roller bearing crank Richard.
You will be the first KG cylinder head Carrera engine owner.
We can talk the details with emails.
On KG 3 piece cylinder head, power flexibility is lovely, by just changing the cylinders you can up the power from 1500cc to 2 liter.
Cam box and gears are same .Unbolt the cam box which all the long and short shaft and gears attached install it on different CC cylinder heads.
IK
4Cam Cooling

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Joris Koning
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Re: Bob Garretson's idea 3 piece Carrera Cylinder Head work completed.

#33 Post by Joris Koning » Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:44 pm

Ibrahim, can you go to 2 liter keeping the 547/692 stroke and thus long shafts?
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Ibrahim Kuzu
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Re: Bob Garretson's idea 3 piece Carrera Cylinder Head work completed.

#34 Post by Ibrahim Kuzu » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:18 pm

Joris,
As you know,
Cylinder heads and Case opining modified on pushrod engines up to 2.1 liter with special crank etc.
Like 911 cylinder heads,Each Carrera Cylinder head can be custom build for specific CC and valve size and Porting
If the base is strong enough to carry the load.Like 82 mm roller bearing did 185HP on 547/6 1754 cc engine.
My opinion for a Street, 125 ~145 hp is a very playful power ,and plenty enough for a great 356 motoring, considering stopping power of ( Disc brakes )
IK

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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Bob Garretson's idea 3 piece Carrera Cylinder Head work completed.

#35 Post by Jacques Lefriant » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:59 pm

Hi Richard
The current availability of parts for 4-Cam engine building is at an all time high. We can now thank Ibraham, Capricorn/Porsche, Classic Parts(Peter Hofman) Retro-3D(Andre Mosner) and Speedco(Michael Van ...) for their efforts. The big problem is that these parts do not assemble themselves. The other issue is their are too many opinions on what is needed and what should be considered as far as originality and improvements.
j
Hi Joris
a 98mm bore would achieve a 2ltr engine with 547/692 stroke and gear shafts you would have to relocate the cylinder head studs and other accommodations.
 

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Harlan Halsey
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Re: Bob Garretson's idea 3 piece Carrera Cylinder Head work completed.

#36 Post by Harlan Halsey » Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:06 am

Ibraham,
Have you looked at what is left of the case cylinder seating surface-practically nothing-on one of those 2.1 liter conversions?

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Re: Bob Garretson's idea 3 piece Carrera Cylinder Head work completed.

#37 Post by Harlan Halsey » Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:42 am

Jacques,
It's been a while since I had one of these engines apart, and more than a decade since Forge and I were toying with the PB crank idea. I see much progress has been made on the crank conversion. As I understand it, your solution is to have a special crank made which has the Hirth coupling instead of the later 692 coupling. Thus preserving the roller thrust bearing and the crank gear, and avoiding that "one heavy blow with a heavy hammer". We were unaware that Hirth couplings could be made back then. Your solution is indeed elegant If one half of the Hirth can be made, so can the other, so flywheels can be made too.
I have one of the 547 Carrera racing flywheels. When Chuck Forge saw it he had all of his SCCA racing flywheels lightened accordingly.

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Ibrahim Kuzu
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Re: Bob Garretson's idea 3 piece Carrera Cylinder Head work completed.

#38 Post by Ibrahim Kuzu » Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:21 am

Jacques,
Thank you,
We appreciate every one putting their money and time getting us the parts to keep these jewel of the engines running.
Without their afford, 4 cam field would be almost frozen....
IK

Harlan,
You got it.
Our way is, keep the case cylinder opining as healthy as possible, so Studs have a good holding material around.
IK

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Joris Koning
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Re: Bob Garretson's idea 3 piece Carrera Cylinder Head work completed.

#39 Post by Joris Koning » Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:31 am

Jacques,

In the past you have spoken about making new "one time use" roller cranks. Any update on that? Roller crank availability is a major issue. The plain bearing conversions are nice but the impact in terms of having the run front coolers etc. Is major for cars not setup for them. To me, this is the biggest white spot in terms of 4-cam parts availability left.
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Martin Benade
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Re: Bob Garretson's idea 3 piece Carrera Cylinder Head work completed.

#40 Post by Martin Benade » Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:13 am

Is one-time-use meaning a crank with a reasonable lifespan but not rebuildable?
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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Bob Garretson's idea 3 piece Carrera Cylinder Head work completed.

#41 Post by Jacques Lefriant » Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:55 pm

Hi Martin and Joris
I gave up on the project since there wasn't enought interest. It could have been done fairly easily and inexpensively. I would venture that MTBF would be the same or better than the Hirth crank. the cost to rebuild would be comparble to the replacement cost and not as reliable. Since Capricorn can build an original specification roller crank i don't see the need for another crank.
j
 

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Re: Bob Garretson's idea 3 piece Carrera Cylinder Head work completed.

#42 Post by Harlan Halsey » Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:21 am

Joris,
I suspect that running on the street, the PB crank in a 547 could get away without the oil coolers. Or if necessary a small cooler recirculating the oil tank would suffice. Not too long ago Arthur Conner reported that the second front cooler was un necessary on a street Carrera he had, maybe the single wasn't needed either.
I agree that the factory front cooler set up is quite extensive, but a cooler in the right fender would almost certainly do the job, and simplify things quite a bit. Depends on what your objective is.

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Re: Bob Garretson's idea 3 piece Carrera Cylinder Head work completed.

#43 Post by Jeff Adams » Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:38 am

Harlan - I would disagree with a plain bearing 547 not needing a cooler. The first car and engine to have the front cooler setup, the 1958 692/1 plain bearing engines in GT coupes and Speedsters, made no more power than a roller crank engine. Both the 547/1 GT and 692/1 were 1500cc with the same cams, carbs, etc. I doubt the factory went to all the expense and trouble of the thermostat, front lines and coolers if they weren't needed. If someone decides to try and run a plain bearing engine with the 1500 tank and no external cooler setup would like to know the results.

For at least two customer cars, we installed a thermostat and ran a cooler behind the right rear wheel. We had a protection screen made, mirror image, identical to the one that goes around the tank to protect the cooler from debris. We also used a cooler with an electric fan controlled by a thermoswitch. It was all a custom fabrication and setup but much simpler and easier than running the lines up to the front. It worked fine with no overheating problems, although both cars had RS60 specification roller crank engines. The electric fan rarely if ever came on so I would most likely use this same setup for a plain bearing engine.

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Re: Bob Garretson's idea 3 piece Carrera Cylinder Head work completed.

#44 Post by Jacques Lefriant » Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:39 am

Hi Jeff
i am replacing the roller crank on a coupe that had run a 547/3 engine with a 82mm crank that went bad. the car did not need coolers with the Spyder engine and had run that way on the street for many years. We are going to go old school with 2 front mounted coolers.
j
 

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Ibrahim Kuzu
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Re: Bob Garretson's idea 3 piece Carrera Cylinder Head work completed.

#45 Post by Ibrahim Kuzu » Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:22 pm

Jeff,
For only street.
I would say if one designs an aluminum oil tank 1500cc style, coming in oil is separated ( like water fall )
and particular area in oil separating surface has low cooling fins ,The Carrera oil tank than act as a partial oil cooler.
With todays technology we can design an oil tank which accommodates the PB cranks in 547 or any Carrera case
without all those oil lines. In my opinion this could work.

Sure like to do this in future ,See what will happen ...Exciting project....
IK
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