Pre A engine stamping

[Vivian Campbell]

I'm seeking to clarify whether or not a 1951 (Sept) 1300cc engine might be stamped by both VW and Porsche, or if it should just have a Porsche stamp?

If anyone can shed light on this it would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

Viv

[William Block]

I have never seen both stamped.

What's your car's and engine"s serial number?

thanks
Bill Block
Once reviews columnist and the 356 Registry Registrar
Now unofficial, self-appointed registrar trying to keep the faith.
Blocks Books www.BLOCKS-BOOKS.COM
7295 Coldspring Ln. West Bloomfield, MI 48322 USA
248/672-2637 blocklab@gmail.com
1953/1952 1500N coupe #11994
1957 Super tractor #133/7622
1959/1958 1600N sunroof coupe #106072
1965/1964 356C Porsche cabriolet #161564
1966/1965 911 coupe #303269
1970 914/6 2.8 modified #9140432388
1998/1998 Silk, aka the fabulous Freda’s Boxter WPOCA2983WS621230

[Vivian Campbell]

I have never seen both stamped.

What's your car's and engine"s serial number?

thanks
Bill Block
Once reviews columnist and the 356 Registry Registrar
Now unofficial, self-appointed registrar trying to keep the faith.
Blocks Books www.BLOCKS-BOOKS.COM
7295 Coldspring Ln. West Bloomfield, MI 48322 USA
248/672-2637 blocklab@gmail.com
1953/1952 1500N coupe #11994
1957 Super tractor #133/7622
1959/1958 1600N sunroof coupe #106072
1965/1964 356C Porsche cabriolet #161564
1966/1965 911 coupe #303269
1970 914/6 2.8 modified #9140432388
1998/1998 Silk, aka the fabulous Freda’s Boxter WPOCA2983WS621230

Hi Bill. Thanks for the reply.

It's not my car; I'm trying to ascertain provenance as I'm viewing as a possible purchase. Chassis number is : 10118. Engine number is: 20486. Car was offered at RM Sotheby's in Oct 2018 and seems to have sold to a dealer afterwards, apparently hammering not-sold at the auction. Dealer is advertising as matchings numbers, but RM's pre-auction description mentions that the block is a re-stamped period replacement. Dealer says case has both VW and Porsche stamps and is original to the car.

[Spencer Harris]

20486 is a '51 Type 506, 1300 and would be correct for chassis no. 10118.
The first photo is a good summary of the numbers found on a 2-pc motor.
Second photo is my '54 2-pc case showing the VW part no. 01024 cast in the case. (EDITED)

IMG_0266.jpg (68.76 KiB) Viewed 1358 times

external case P33271 Passenger Side2.jpg (426.41 KiB) Viewed 1358 times

[Vic Skirmants]

Please; let's not refer to casting marks as "stamped". A stamp is an impression punched into the metal, whereas a casting mark is usually raised and cast into the part.
Yes, all 2-piece case engines had VW casting marks, and the Porsche ones had a number stamped as shown.
Just my Sunday morning grump.

[William Block]

I think Vic has answered the question -- not really a VW engine serial number.
My understanding is that it had a replacement engine. Check with California Porsche Restoration.
Here is what I have.

'51/'51 356 Reutter cabriolet #10118
506 P*20486*
trans
Pasha red (523A)/beige leather/carpet/top
Sonderausführung:
(first Porsche delivered to Argentina)
Built 51.09.13 del 53.08. TERAM/CIPA Buenos Aires, ARGENTINA
?, location?; ex Rolf Giesdorf, GERMANY; ex Jean-Pierre Crehel, BELGIUM; ?, ARGENTINA
Mar 19, driver-restored-engine, direct (CPR)

[James Davies]

Vivian, post a picture of the motor with all the stampings, and we'll pick it apart for you.

As others have said, yes, all cases were cast and machined as pairs at VW, so they have both VW embossed casting numbers (thanks Vic) and VW case matching and quality control stamps. And VW embossed date codes on both halves, one on the side of the generator stand and the other down by the oil pump cover.

Porsche then took these VW cases and machined them for Porsche cylinders, stamped them with a Porsche P-xxxxx engine number, a 4-digit internal engine number, and the initials of the engine builder.

Photos will very quickly tell the story.

[Vivian Campbell]

Bill, Spencer, Vic and James. Thanks for the input.

James, unfortunately I personally don't have any relevant pics of engine. The car is for sale at CPR. I'm attaching a link to their ad, plus a link to the RM Sotheby auction where the car was for sale in 2018. I have limited info to go on and I haven't seen the car in person. The Sothebys link does show a pic of the stamping, but their copy states it's a replacement engine, hence the discrepancy.

Vic, you are very much correct - big, big difference between stamping and casting. My mistake

I have a '56 and a '58. This is my first (possible) venture into the world of the Pre A.

https://www.cprclassic.com/vehicles/337 ... lit-window

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/po18 ... ter/712569

[Spencer Harris]

Gorgeous car - love the Pascha Red!

[James Davies]

Thanks for the links. Gorgeous car.

Engine has an internal number of 2979. That would indicate that that motor was assembled at Porsche Werk II at the end of 1952. Here's relevant internal numbers and the corresponding Porsche engine number and type:

2890 30922 546
2898 30937 546
2899 30948 546
2938 21308 506
2944 30962 546
2994 40106 528
3026 31019 546

If you look closely, the original number of the case has been machined off, and the "matching" number 20486 stamped on the now, not-quite-as-high engine number pad. Porsche did not stamp the numbers like that. The font is wrong and it would have a "P xxxxx" or "P-xxxxx" number. There is no "P" on this stamping.

And it looks as though they also stamped "506" below the internal number, but it looks to be poorly done and is covering up the 546 or 528 number originally there. The forger didn't know that Porsche did not stamp engine types on the cases back in 1951 when P-20486 would have been assembled. That didn't start until late 1952.

And in fact, you can see part of the VW manufacturing date code embossed on the side of the generator stand. Last digits are 22, which means it was made in 1952 (2nd shift).

So no, not numbers matching. But it is a Porsche case that's been ruined by someone trying to pass it off as something it is not. Bummer.

Otherwise, car looks really nice and has lots of nice period detail. Though the front bench seats are 1953 or later and the raised "embossed" area around the turn signals is not done correctly. And the engine has the wrong 36hp fuel VW fuel pump with 6mm fuel lines (should be 8mm for Porsche). Love the patina steering wheel. Wrong fuse box. Wrong engine fan shroud, missing fuel filter, incorrect carb linkage for 32 PBI carbs. Mann oil filter is (poorly) painted up like a Fram.

[Vivian Campbell]

James, you're a most knowledgeable chap! Many thanks for the detailed assessment, and my thanks to everyone else, too, for all your feedback on this.

What a great resource the Registry is.

[Paul Jorgensen]

I second that...
In my short time owning a Pre A, the advise given to me and knowledge within the registry is outstanding.

[Paul Hatfield]

Adding to the comments about the engine- It is very pretty, very clean, very shinny. But man, what a gross generator/fan belt. Just my very biased opinion.
And, yes, I am biased because I spent considerable time developing generator/fan belts that are smooth, not cogged, with artwork so that the belt looks like it belongs on a lovely Pre-A.
Paul

[John Hearn]

Paul
+1 on "cogged" belts.
Hate them.......
KTF
John

[James Davies]

A $6 solution to cogged belts on 2-piece case engines is the Optibelt VB A34. As far as I know, the only one being produced today, as the ones Brad had made long ago from Continental are no longer available.

Though the engine above also has the incorrect upper pulley (too small diameter), so the A34 belt would likely be too big.