Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

356 Porsche-related discussions and questions.
Message
Author
User avatar
Glen Getchell
356 Fan
Posts: 658
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:43 pm
Location: Seminole, Florida

Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#31 Post by Glen Getchell » Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:08 pm

Well, I don't know what to tell Cliff and others, but the info you are being given from your bank was the same as I was "first" given. Again, ask for that in writing and see what happens. I can tell you with certainty that I have heard of two people having had wire transfers reversed. One was international and I do not know what the second was. I can also tell you through personal experience, that my bank (Wells Fargo) back tracked at increasing distances over a period of a week as to if a wire transfer can be reversed. From no it can't at the start of the week, to absolutely it can by the end of the week. I'm not making this up. Why would I?

Since this thread first started I was doing some online banking and there was a advertisement for Zelle (Which Mark) brought up. I Googled it, and this is what I found.

" You can only cancel a payment if the recipient hasn’t yet enrolled with Zelle®. You can go to your activity page within the Zelle® experience, either within your mobile banking app or the Zelle® app, choose the payment you want to cancel, and then select “Cancel This Payment.”

If your recipient has already enrolled with Zelle®, the money is sent directly to your recipient’s bank account and cannot be canceled."


However as usual it sounds to good to be true. For example with my bank here is the limits you can transfer

Transfers to established recipients from a Wells Fargo Bank Funding Account may be made up to a daily dollar limit of $3,500 and a 30-day rolling dollar limit of $20,000. Higher limits may apply in certain transactions or if you are using a Funding Account from Wells Fargo Advisors or The Private Bank

So Zelle is great for parts, not practical for the sale of a five or six digit car.

As my lawyer friend said. "All banks have their own policies". The regulations talked about above kinda went over my head. But nothing in the regulations discussed if the rules also apply to overseas funds (All three cars I sold went to Europe). Is wire funds from in the States different then from over seas? Do different regulations apply? Or maybe it has to do with how long it takes to clear the funds. I know when I wired money to Germany for the International 356 event it took longer for the money to clear than if I had paid in Gold Coins and sent it over by Spanish Galion. It's amazing it takes longer for an electronic signal to cross the ocean than a 500 year old ship. (Seriously, I'm not kidding if the ship has wind.)

I'm glad Cliff was able to get an answer from his banker. I don't know why it's different from the answer from my banker. But I'm sticking with my own research, and right or wrong, I recommend that anyone accepting a large wire transfer have their bank provide you a guarantee in writing that it can not be reversed. After all if there is no way for it to be, they should have no problem providing that. If they won't, well you have to ask yourself why? As I said before, I did not find out all of what I found out about wire transfers until I had a large wire transfer imminent (no hypotheticals for the bank to wiggle out of) and asked Wells Fargo to put it in writing after a French friend told me he'd been screwed for a couple thousand, and a lawyer friend confirmed that he knew of it happening.

With that said, in the future I will remain skeptical of wire transfers based on my personal experience and research, and believe I will continue my safety protocols I first talked about. I simply literally can not afford the risk whether its real or bad info provided to me by three sources.

Glen
64Cx2

User avatar
Glen Getchell
356 Fan
Posts: 658
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:43 pm
Location: Seminole, Florida

Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#32 Post by Glen Getchell » Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:31 pm

Oh, let me add one more thing. I had the bank open an entirely new account specifically for the wire transfer. As soon as the funds were in my account, I immediately had them transferred to my regular account. Even doing this Wells Fargo said to delay delivery of the car as long as I could. I don't know what else to say. Obviously the bank still thought there was risk.

Glen
64Cx2

User avatar
Vic Skirmants
Registry Hall of Fame
Posts: 8803
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:02 pm
Location: SE Michigan

Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#33 Post by Vic Skirmants » Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:55 am

I would change banks.

User avatar
Glen Getchell
356 Fan
Posts: 658
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:43 pm
Location: Seminole, Florida

Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#34 Post by Glen Getchell » Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:23 pm

I contacted my French buddy (He's a U.S. citizen and a 356 / Porsche guy) what the circumstances were on his wire transfer reversal. Regrettably his response is not very helpful, but does show its possible. Here was his response.

I absolutely do not remember - other than being surprised the bank could and did reverse the transfer. I was gobsmacked. It’s been too long - I can’t recall what I did last month !
It happened to me…


I have also done some research on the Internet. There are ways to reverse overseas transers, but only under certain circumstances or within 30 min. However, one way is a mistake by the bank sending it. Now let's just imagine Count Moneybags is a scum bag in Europe who uses a small village bank to launder all his money. Count Moneybags is this banks biggest customer. All the Count needs the bank to do is say it made a mistake and the money is reversed (A bank lying. Unheard of). Of course this would not be kosher or legal. And surely action could be taken against all in involved. But let me get my point across here. Unless you are Seller Moneybags or an International Man of Mystery, what are you going to do about it? They are in Europe, and your car is gone. So yes you can spend a couple hundred thousand dollar in international lawyer fees chasing your $75K. Or $50k in lawyer fees suing your bank. Maybe this is why my bank refused to guarantee the transfer? Maybe this whole fictional scenario is silly. But if I can imagine it some scum bag can too. And I don't think it's all that outlandish. You are not dealing with people or banks you can get in your car and go have a talk with when dealing with an International Wire Transfer.

I stick with my original opinion. If your bank will not give you a guarantee in writing, assume there is risk.

Glen
64Cx2

User avatar
Chris Duerr
356 Fan
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:19 pm

Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#35 Post by Chris Duerr » Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:44 pm

Has it been proven that a numbers matching engine runs better when inside the original car it came from the factory? Is there a machinery empathy they create? Is it inappropriate to install a much younger engine such as a 912 power plant into a much older chassis such as a 1956 car? Would that be akin to an older man dating a much younger lady or man depending upon your sexual desire? I have never driven a numbers matching car since perhaps the late 1970s.

User avatar
Adam Wright
Classifieds Monitor
Posts: 10128
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:00 am
Tag: KTF

Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#36 Post by Adam Wright » Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:14 am

Chris Duerr wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:44 pm
Has it been proven that a numbers matching engine runs better when inside the original car it came from the factory? Is there a machinery empathy they create? Is it inappropriate to install a much younger engine such as a 912 power plant into a much older chassis such as a 1956 car? Would that be akin to an older man dating a much younger lady or man depending upon your sexual desire? I have never driven a numbers matching car since perhaps the late 1970s.
It's important to the value of the car because so many people take it seriously, but I've yet to find a way to see the engine while I'm driving...
Attachments
exit3.jpg
exit3.jpg (108.36 KiB) Viewed 2699 times
I always need stories for my Barn Find column in the magazine, if you have a good story to share, please let me know.

Bill Cooper
356 Fan
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:58 pm

Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#37 Post by Bill Cooper » Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:45 am

Adam,
I will guess $57,000. which makes a very cheap, rusty or Speedster bought a long time ago.
Happy Holidays,
Bill Cooper
Bill Cooper
1956 356A Outlaw-"Smokey"
1960BT5 Roadster-"Max"
1963 BT6 Sunroof-"Fritz"
1965 912 Euro Sunroof
1977 911S-"Annie"
1970 ISO Rivolta LeLe
2021 Corvette C8-"Zora"

Tim Splaine
356 Fan
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:58 pm
Location: Bristol, UK

Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#38 Post by Tim Splaine » Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:09 am

Some great advice there Cliff and Glen, thanks for taking to time to write this article.

User avatar
Joris Koning
356 Fan
Posts: 2442
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#39 Post by Joris Koning » Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:39 am

Several items just posted in the classifieds are clearly fraudulent. A tool kit, pre-A dash, square door handles. All from the same seller.
'56 Coupe
'57 Coupe
'59 Cab 
'60 Coupe

User avatar
Michael Branning
Registry Trustee
Posts: 415
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:00 pm
Location: Lexington, SC
Instagram: @mtbranning
Contact:

Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#40 Post by Michael Branning » Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:36 am

Joris Koning wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:39 am
Several items just posted in the classifieds are clearly fraudulent. A tool kit, pre-A dash, square door handles. All from the same seller.
User membership has been cancelled pending further examination.
Michael Branning
356 Registry President/Trustee
Lexington SC
'64 SR Coupe

Post Reply