Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

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DaveErickson
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Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#16 Post by DaveErickson » Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:50 am

chris romney wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:18 pm
When selling I don't take anything but wire transfers and PayPal friends and family. Everything else including cashiers checks is subject to fraud.

Chris
As a buyer, I would never use Paypal friends and family unless I knew the seller. I will always use regular Paypal and pay the fees. Paypal's buyer protection is voided if you use friends and family.

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Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#17 Post by Mark Pribanic » Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:26 am

Has anyone used Zelle for transactions. Super easy!
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Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#18 Post by Glen Getchell » Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:17 pm

Mark Pribanic wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:26 am
Has anyone used Zelle for transactions. Super easy!
I contacted my lawyer friend (who knows a guy who lost big bucks in a wire transfer reversal) and asked if there was some sort of info that he could provide that I could cut and paste on the forum. He doesn't at this time, but was going to look. But he did say this.

" I don't have a cut and paste, but I will look...best to ask Bank that one deals with. Bank sets own policy. Bank of America holds large checks for ten days. Free loan to them. No regulations of Bank policy.

Once you make a Zelle payment, it's final. My wife sent some lucky guy $100.00."


I have never heard of Zelle, so this is something we should be looking into. I have no idea if this "Zelle" thing existed a few years back when I did my transfers.
I would argue that asking your bank if a wire transfer is not adequate. Ask for it in writing. That is what started my trip down this rabbit hole.

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Martin Benade
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Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#19 Post by Martin Benade » Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:07 pm

Asking for it in writing was a key on your part to getting the truth. A great idea.
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Cliff Murray
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Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#20 Post by Cliff Murray » Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:06 pm

I finally, minutes ago, spoke to my banker just after I spoke to a retired(20 years) banker friend. There is absolutely no way for a wire transfer to be taken back by the sender once it shows up in the recipient's bank account.
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Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#21 Post by Jeffrey Leeds » Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:53 pm

Cliff Murray wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:06 pm
I finally, minutes ago, spoke to my banker just after I spoke to a retired(20 years) banker friend. There is absolutely no way for a wire transfer to be taken back by the sender once it shows up in the recipient's bank account.
+ 1. This is technically called an Electronic Funds Transfer and becomes subject to the Electronic Funds Transfer Act of 1978. These payments are not regulated by the Uniform Commercial Code, but rather by Federal Reserve Regulation B.
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Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#22 Post by chris romney » Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:31 pm

Dave; if you read my post, I almost only deal with people I know, or who are well know in the 356 community. If I were buying from a stranger, I too would pay the PayPal fees which are cheap insurance. What Cliff and Jeff have discovered corresponds with my decades of professional experience with wire transfers. Once sent, they can't be reversed, so before you send an unknown person money, you better be sure of what you're doing. Regarding banks not giving you access to your money for 10 days after you deposit a check; it's total nonsense. All banks are now on a clearing system which clears checks within 24 hours, so you should have access to your money the next day at the latest. Anything else is just an attempt by the bank to take the "float" on your money for 10 days. If pressed, I've found that banks will give you access the next day. Ten days is a total fabrication, although I might use it as an excuse if I were selling to someone overseas or unknown to me just to make sure I got paid and the check was good.

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Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#23 Post by Michael Branning » Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:47 pm

Great work on this Cliff. Very wise advice, clearly stated.
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Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#24 Post by Adam Wright » Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:18 pm

I've always been told by my bank that a Bank Wire is a one way street, cannot be retrieved. I did however once grill my banker on whether or not you can put a stop payment on a bank check and you can. They discourage it, but will do it. So taking a bank check for a car is a bad idea if you watch the car drive away. It's also a bad idea because there are so many fake checks.
Some guys also insist on old school, this was the night before I bought a 55 Speedster, anyone want to guess how much is in the stacks?
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Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#25 Post by Jerry Powell » Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:08 pm

Part of the confusion may be that it is technically possible to do a EFT reversal, but procedurally it is used only in exigency circumstances.
I designed a turnkey EFT and accounting system for the US Treasury and we had to pass four rigorous tests with the FRBNY that included wire reversals. We appeared like a member bank to the Federal Reserve Network and had access to all member banks attached to it.
I remember one instance where the President's first paycheck had to be reversed because it was not sent to his bank----politically this would have been bad news and no one knew about it but the EOP who sent it and us(We also ran the system).

So, this may be part of the confusion.
 

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Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#26 Post by Martin Benade » Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:20 pm

So what does it take to be an exigency situation and how can you prevent that possibility?
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Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#27 Post by Jerry Powell » Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:55 pm

It depends:
If you are a member of congress and your district did not get a $100m letter of credit payment-----you want to look good. You call the Treasury Secretary, declare an political emergency and it(reverse and payment) happens---with your photo in the local paper.
It ain't going to happen to a normal person unless the bank views the situation as a liability.

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Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#28 Post by Jeffrey Leeds » Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:33 am

Adam Wright wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:18 pm
anyone want to guess how much is in the stacks?
Actually it wouldn’t be hard to do Adam if we had a clearer picture of the bundled grouping of the “Bands” and “Straps” since there is a protocol for how many individual bills comprise each.
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Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#29 Post by Michael Branning » Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:35 am

Jerry Powell wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:08 pm
Part of the confusion may be that it is technically possible to do a EFT reversal, but procedurally it is used only in exigency circumstances.
I designed a turnkey EFT and accounting system for the US Treasury and we had to pass four rigorous tests with the FRBNY that included wire reversals. We appeared like a member bank to the Federal Reserve Network and had access to all member banks attached to it.
I remember one instance where the President's first paycheck had to be reversed because it was not sent to his bank----politically this would have been bad news and no one knew about it but the EOP who sent it and us(We also ran the system).

So, this may be part of the confusion.
 
Thats great information to clear up the confusion. Thanks for sharing Jerry!
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Re: Avoiding Being a Victim of Classic Car Hobby Fraud

#30 Post by Adam Wright » Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:00 am

Jeffrey Leeds wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:33 am
Adam Wright wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:18 pm
anyone want to guess how much is in the stacks?
Actually it wouldn’t be hard to do Adam if we had a clearer picture of the bundled grouping of the “Bands” and “Straps” since there is a protocol for how many individual bills comprise each.
That would take all the fun out it it!
I always need stories for my Barn Find column in the magazine, if you have a good story to share, please let me know.

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