What type & size of tires to use / what fits? / "best" tire?

356 Porsche-related discussions and questions.
Message
Author
User avatar
David Jones
Classifieds Moderator
Posts: 6730
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:32 pm
Tag: I wish I knew as much as I think I know.
Location: Kentucky

Re: What type & size of tires to use / what fits? / "best" tire?

#586 Post by David Jones » Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:39 am

Dougal, read the book I reference below, particularly note his take on tires, go drive a couple of 356's on a country road with a variety of tires then report back. I grew up in the hills of S Wales and now reside in the hills of Kentucky and I buy my tires and set my pressures and suspension according to my needs. By the way I also raced a variety of cars on race tracks across the USA and prefer to make my tire choice based on real world experience rather than merchandising hype written by an overpaid ad guy who wouldn't know a durometer from a durex.
Yes, as I said before I would prefer the correct size of 165x80x15 but I am not going to pay $250 for one tire when I can buy 4 for the same price for what is essentially measure driving. Why buy a 150 mph tire when I only occasionally get in the high double digits. I also looked for other users comments and here is one at random.
https://www.early911sregistry.org/forum ... sappointed
https://www.amazon.com/Unfair-Advantage ... 9035&psc=1
In the 60's and 70's I bought Michelin X, Cinturato, Goodyear G800 and even rallied on retreads because trashing a tire was common when driving Motoring News Saturday night rallies through the forest tracks in the UK. You appear to be a salesman not a 356 enthusiast Dougal, so perhaps your energies would be better spent writing ads for the classifieds.
If I had known I would live this long I would have pushed the envelope a little harder.
Cymru am byth
David Jones #9715

User avatar
Martin Benade
356 Fan
Posts: 8907
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:52 am
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: What type & size of tires to use / what fits? / "best" tire?

#587 Post by Martin Benade » Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:16 am

You are confusing opinion with fact. They are not the same.
Cleveland Ohio
62 Cabriolet
56 VW
02 IS 300
04 Sienna

Dougal Cawley
356 Fan
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:59 am

Re: What type & size of tires to use / what fits? / "best" tire?

#588 Post by Dougal Cawley » Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:08 pm

David Jones wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:39 am
Dougal, read the book I reference below, particularly note his take on tires, go drive a couple of 356's on a country road with a variety of tires then report back. I grew up in the hills of S Wales and now reside in the hills of Kentucky and I buy my tires and set my pressures and suspension according to my needs. By the way I also raced a variety of cars on race tracks across the USA
Yes raced. Racing has got nothing to do with a road tyre. and yes if you lower your suspention, stiffen your springs and adjust your camber etc, you can derive more grip from a wider modern tyre by presenting that foot print to the tarmac in a manner greater ultimate grip on a perfectly smooth race track, but that makes an unpleasant road car. All of that comes at the expense of progressive handling and ride. Its not about grip. its about handling and what makes a nice road tyre, is a world apart from what makes a good race set up.
David Jones wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:39 am
and prefer to make my tire choice based on real world experience rather than merchandising hype written by an overpaid ad guy who wouldn't know a durometer from a durex.
Aaaagh ha ha ha! I like that.
David Jones wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:39 am
Yes, as I said before I would prefer the correct size of 165x80x15 but I am not going to pay $250 for one tire when I can buy 4 for the same price for what is essentially measure driving. Why buy a 150 mph tire when I only occasionally get in the high double digits.
And here is the rub - its about price.

yes you can get fat modern tyres that are about the right diameter that are cheap. but they are not as good as better tyres or of the correect size and carcass structure. Better tyres cost more.

https://www.lucasclassictires.com/165HR ... irelli.htm

i can buy a VW Beetle for less than i pay for a 356. It still has a air cooled engine. No. There is more to it than that.
David Jones wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:39 am
I also looked for other users comments and here is one at random.
https://www.early911sregistry.org/forum ... sappointed
https://www.amazon.com/Unfair-Advantage ... 9035&psc=1
I had a staff member off work recently, locked down because of Coroney, his daughter had read and beleived on someones post on face book post that Coroney vaccination made you sterile. She beleived some numpty off of facebook over all the facts that were out there from the real experts.


who are you choosing to beleive? the person who tells you what you want to hear - " yes cheap rubbish wrong size tyes are actually better than the correct carcass structure and size made by the worlds best tyre manufacturers"

Or

Do you stand back and beleive what Porsche tell you having tested these tyres themselves and awarded them the N homologation. The German KlassiK car magazine that did a modern back to back tyre test on these tyres and gave the CN36 results that would embarass any modern tyrt on a modern car.
David Jones wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:39 am
In the 60's and 70's I bought Michelin X, Cinturato, Goodyear G800 and even rallied on retreads because trashing a tire was common when driving Motoring News Saturday night rallies through the forest tracks in the UK. You appear to be a salesman not a 356 enthusiast Dougal, so perhaps your energies would be better spent writing ads for the classifieds.
Look i'm not telling you your car will immediately be dreadful if you fit a cheapo wrong size tyres. the differences are suble, but they are there, and yes you may have used remoulds because they were cheaper for loose surface rallying in a heavily modified car, and they certainly would be loads cheaper than the goods i am pedaling. I get that. they cost more. but on a road car they will be an all round nicer road tyre to drive on. yes cheaper stuff costs less but it doesnt mean its as good it just means it costs less. dont mix up "better value" with "better"

It isn't right to tell people that wrong size modern tyres work just as well on an old chassis design, because they don't. Ask Pirelli, Ask Porsche, dont ask some self appointed expert in a pub.

User avatar
PaulLima
356 Fan
Posts: 451
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:02 pm
Location: Gardnerville, NV

Re: What type & size of tires to use / what fits? / "best" tire?

#589 Post by PaulLima » Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:31 pm

Dougal, please go away and let us enjoy our cars and tires.

User avatar
Martin Benade
356 Fan
Posts: 8907
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:52 am
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: What type & size of tires to use / what fits? / "best" tire?

#590 Post by Martin Benade » Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:40 pm

+1. Or you could say what’s good about the ones you sell while remaining silent on the other ones which you know nothing about.
Cleveland Ohio
62 Cabriolet
56 VW
02 IS 300
04 Sienna

Dougal Cawley
356 Fan
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:59 am

Re: What type & size of tires to use / what fits? / "best" tire?

#591 Post by Dougal Cawley » Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:05 am

PaulLima wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:31 pm
Dougal, please go away and let us enjoy our cars and tires.
The choice is of course yours as to weather you read my comments or not. That is up to you.

This isn’t the first time someone has been upset because I have called them out on incorrect claims that wrong size modern tyres on classic cars are good. it should not be claimed they are better, when in actuality what they mean is they are cheaper and that person is prepared to cope with the compromise to save money.

Predominately people are glad to be informed that there are good tyres available.

However when claims are made that cheap wrong tyres are better I will dispute it and stand my ground.

I’m not just bickering with you for fun. My retorts are related to incorrect claims.

I’m sure I’ve posted this before but https://www.cinturato.net/images/test-c ... s-0716.pdf

User avatar
David Jones
Classifieds Moderator
Posts: 6730
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:32 pm
Tag: I wish I knew as much as I think I know.
Location: Kentucky

Re: What type & size of tires to use / what fits? / "best" tire?

#592 Post by David Jones » Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:52 am

Dougal, under the conditions most of these cars are driven I would hazard a guess that most drivers will never get to the point where a difference in "performance" will be apparent. The ride difference varies depending on tire pressures and the grip will depend on tire compound. Wet weather roadholding is of no consequence, we coddle the cars. Traction in snow ????
I contend that on a track I would lap as fast on my Sumitomo 175 tires as I would on a set of 165 3CN36. I would however not be using recommended street tire pressures so the test would be meaningless. You are doing your best to sell decent tires for an outrageous price and there is no doubt you will sell a few sets but my guess is that the folks who buy tires costing $250 each are not going to drive their cars at more that six tenths let alone get to ten tenths or probably the legal speed limit. Good luck to you but here endeth my discussion with you on tires.
If I had known I would live this long I would have pushed the envelope a little harder.
Cymru am byth
David Jones #9715

User avatar
Vic Skirmants
Registry Hall of Fame
Posts: 8803
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:02 pm
Location: SE Michigan

Re: What type & size of tires to use / what fits? / "best" tire?

#593 Post by Vic Skirmants » Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:05 am

PaulLima wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:31 pm
Dougal, please go away and let us enjoy our cars and tires.
+1

Dougal Cawley
356 Fan
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:59 am

Re: What type & size of tires to use / what fits? / "best" tire?

#594 Post by Dougal Cawley » Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:08 am

David Jones wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:52 am
Dougal, under the conditions most of these cars are driven I would hazard a guess that most drivers will never get to the point where a difference in "performance" will be apparent.
That is your guess.

Many 356 owners enjoy the way their car drives and want to have it as good as it can be.

You do not have to be driving a car fast to appreciate directional stability, and not wanting to suffer tracking on rutted roads that a wide square foot print generates. You might also want to appreciate light fast precise steering that you get from a suitable carcass structure with the right size tyre.
David Jones wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:52 am
The ride difference varies depending on tire pressures and the grip will depend on tire compound.
That is just not correct. There is a whole heap more to it than that.! There is the way your chassis presents your foot print to the road which determins the way your car handles. The fact that modern squarer tyres are stiffer and lift their footprint off the road when cornering on an old chassis without the right camber.

Image

There is the rounded side walls of a period car that absorb the bumps more than a modern tyre and compliment the geometry of your suspention.
David Jones wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:52 am
Wet weather roadholding is of no consequence, we coddle the cars.
Really? you might do, but you are not speaking for everyone. I drive pre war cars, 50's and 60s Lotus, and Rolls Royce and i thrash the lot of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK2XFb_cKe8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biv_coAVy_o&t=97s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBSw_8zaBGU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4ZKOPmeU7c
David Jones wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:52 am
Traction in snow ????
Again fit a rounded tyre carcass to cut through the snow, with a section size suited to the weight of the car, and don't have low profile tyres and of course take it steady. or go massive and nobbly for real settled snow. (actually i have been thinking about this, and although i don't really recomend the Michelin XZX for a Porsche (fine for a Beetle) it would probably be the best cold weather tyre.)
David Jones wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:52 am
I contend that on a track I would lap as fast on my Sumitomo 175 tires as I would on a set of 165 3CN36.
No you wouldn't unless you lowered the car, stiffened the springs and added some adverse camber!
David Jones wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:52 am
I would however not be using recommended street tire pressures so the test would be meaningless.
David Jones wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:52 am
You are doing your best to sell decent tires for an outrageous price and there is no doubt you will sell a few sets
You are for some reason determined to argue continuously that cheap wrong size tyres are better just blindly, regardless of the facts.
David Jones wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:52 am
but my guess is that the folks who buy tires costing $250 each are not going to drive their cars at more that six tenths let alone get to ten tenths or probably the legal speed limit. Good luck to you but here endeth my discussion with you on tires.
Your guess.

That is your view of what is a rip off tyre, but look around you. This is what unusual low volume high quality tyres cost. Look at comparative tyres from other manufacturers made in similaly small volume tyres. They are a fair price for what they are, but this stuff does amount to a large credit card bill. It just does. It is your view that these prices are outrageous, not everyones. I can't imagine anyone thinks they are cheap, but decerning drivers, if they can afford it, are prepared to pay a bit more for the good stuff, in the same way the purchaser of a 356 back in the day was prepared to pay more for a 356 rather than buy a Beetle.

User avatar
Vic Skirmants
Registry Hall of Fame
Posts: 8803
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:02 pm
Location: SE Michigan

Re: What type & size of tires to use / what fits? / "best" tire?

#595 Post by Vic Skirmants » Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:11 am

You're not going away; are you.

User avatar
David Jones
Classifieds Moderator
Posts: 6730
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:32 pm
Tag: I wish I knew as much as I think I know.
Location: Kentucky

Re: What type & size of tires to use / what fits? / "best" tire?

#596 Post by David Jones » Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:38 am

Okay Dougal now I get it, you own Longstone tires and you want to sell more tires. Why not just advertise in the registry magazine, write an article on tires, include your track exploits, entertain us. You already do a good job selling your tires online. Come clean and quit trying to flog your wares on a forum dedicated to preserving and enjoying our cars. You are promoting a commercial enterprise which is not in keeping with the registry aims.
Do you even own a 356? I am guessing not so you are really not in a position to discuss tire choice for those of us who do.
If I had known I would live this long I would have pushed the envelope a little harder.
Cymru am byth
David Jones #9715

User avatar
Mark Roth
356Talk Moderator
Posts: 1298
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:06 pm
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: What type & size of tires to use / what fits? / "best" tire?

#597 Post by Mark Roth » Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:41 am

Seems to me that both sides of this discussion are correct from their own perspective. There is no need for anyone to start telling someone else to go away.

My personal recent experience with tires is that I had been using various tire brands since 1994. I changed to 5.5 inch rims shortly after I got my current car and went to 185x65 tires. I drive at ten tenths sometimes so I can feel the difference. Kumos were good and Generals were highly rated on Tire Rack but weren’t very good. I wasn’t happy with them when I drove hard with the 911s at the Hill Country Rallye. I read about the CN36s when they came out. Pricey but a world of difference. 185x70s. Yes, steering is heavier than with 165s but I like the look and the car is stable cruising at 4000 rpm. I have noticed that they are wearing faster as they are so soft.

I am considering putting 165s on the front next time. Any problems on the 5.5 inch rims?
Mark Roth
65 C Cab (Black/black)

Dougal Cawley
356 Fan
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:59 am

Re: What type & size of tires to use / what fits? / "best" tire?

#598 Post by Dougal Cawley » Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:21 am

Mark Roth wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:41 am

I am considering putting 165s on the front next time. Any problems on the 5.5 inch rims?
Nope, but consider that if you fit 165 front and 185/70 rear, you will change the balance of the car a bit.

User avatar
Martin Benade
356 Fan
Posts: 8907
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:52 am
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: What type & size of tires to use / what fits? / "best" tire?

#599 Post by Martin Benade » Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:05 am

Dougal, how about some skid pad and slip angle comparisons (with real numbers) of your tires vs some modern ones? Facts rule!
Cleveland Ohio
62 Cabriolet
56 VW
02 IS 300
04 Sienna


Post Reply