Sump plate studs. Lock Tite? Good? Bad? Please advise.
-
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:24 pm
- Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Sump plate studs. Lock Tite? Good? Bad? Please advise.
I am installing a new sump plate using new and longer studs. My question is regarding the use of Lock Tite or some sort of sealer when in stalling the new studs into the case. Good idea? Bad idea? Thoughts? Recommendations? Please advise. Hoping to install this weekend. Thanks,
Greg Kafka
Greg Kafka
Greg Kafka
1965 SC S/R Coupe
Member # 19393
1965 SC S/R Coupe
Member # 19393
Sump plate studs. Lock Tite? Good? Bad? Please advise.
Greg,
Loctite is not a sealing agent but it does perform this to
a degree. I would install the studs with Loctite just to
keep them in there when removing the nuts. The gaskets I use
have aluminum washers to help seal the nuts and if they leak
a few drops over time then that is OK. Don't use the nuts
that are fully headed, In other words a cap nut, these have
a tendency to bottom out on the stud and then will always
take the stud out with it.
Alan
Greg Kafka wrote:
Loctite is not a sealing agent but it does perform this to
a degree. I would install the studs with Loctite just to
keep them in there when removing the nuts. The gaskets I use
have aluminum washers to help seal the nuts and if they leak
a few drops over time then that is OK. Don't use the nuts
that are fully headed, In other words a cap nut, these have
a tendency to bottom out on the stud and then will always
take the stud out with it.
Alan
Greg Kafka wrote:
Post generated using Mail2Forum via email.I am installing a new sump plate using new and longer studs. My question
is regarding the use of Lock Tite or some sort of sealer when in
stalling the new studs into the case. Good idea? Bad idea? Thoughts?
Recommendations? Please advise. Hoping to install this weekend. Thanks,
Greg Kafka
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Kafka
1965 SC S/R Coupe
Member # 19393
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- 356 Fan
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Some diligent searching will locate the proper studs.
Variable lengths are available on each end of the stud. The center (un-threaded) area must be raised IE: larger than the threaded portion.
These will snug down and usually not screw out with the nuts. If your calculations are correct you can use the cap nuts as supplied for VW without problems.
I prefer these as the sump often hits the pavement and messes up the threads and then the standard nuts will pull the stud when removed. Plus they dont seep when used with the copper washers.
Poor old Norm
Variable lengths are available on each end of the stud. The center (un-threaded) area must be raised IE: larger than the threaded portion.
These will snug down and usually not screw out with the nuts. If your calculations are correct you can use the cap nuts as supplied for VW without problems.
I prefer these as the sump often hits the pavement and messes up the threads and then the standard nuts will pull the stud when removed. Plus they dont seep when used with the copper washers.
Poor old Norm
- Steve Harrison
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 3301
- Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:39 am
- Location: Auburn AL
Hey Greg,
I agree that Locktite is not a sealer per se,.. it's more designed as a safety device,..like a lock washer,.. to keep threaded items from unscrewing due to vibration. It's a liquid that's engineered to turn into a crystaline substance when under pressure. That's why the package says you can return the part to service immediately without a wait period for effectiveness. The act of tightening the joint will make the locktite convert and do its job. This being said,... you can use the stuff on the sump studs if you want to with probably no ill effects but my opinion is:
1) What are you "sealing " in regards to the studs if you're looking for a sealant? They are on the wet side of the sump cover business and dont' matter as to seal
2) Who cares if the studs unscrew instead of the nut? Given that you're not a gorilla with the torque and can thread something back in without cross threading what's the harm?
3) Iffin' you put the magic goop on the stud,... and for some reason the stud likes the nut better than it does the block anyway,...you're asking the stud to scrud through the dried crystaline locktite carrying bits of it with itself while it's backing out of a soft aluminun case threading. Which would you prefer,...back screwing via smooth threads,...or a sceechy grinding backscrew through broken crystals.
Don't answer that.
4) Iffin' you put the magic goop on the stud,.. and it does it's job,.. I mean REALLY does it's job,.. ie: clean dry threads, proper torque,..etc. and it HOLDS,.. I mean HOLDS like the red version is supposed to according to the mfgrs rhetoric,... and then the stud is boogered up by afore mentioned speedbump in the Lowe's parking lot,.. and then you need to get said nut off,.. well ,.. you've got a problem,.. and it's name is Broken Studley. Which more often than not requires the use of Mr. Vice grip,.. Also known as the Hillbilly Gripall.
The use of the blue Locktite might mitigate this marginally.
Your choice.
Steve.
I agree that Locktite is not a sealer per se,.. it's more designed as a safety device,..like a lock washer,.. to keep threaded items from unscrewing due to vibration. It's a liquid that's engineered to turn into a crystaline substance when under pressure. That's why the package says you can return the part to service immediately without a wait period for effectiveness. The act of tightening the joint will make the locktite convert and do its job. This being said,... you can use the stuff on the sump studs if you want to with probably no ill effects but my opinion is:
1) What are you "sealing " in regards to the studs if you're looking for a sealant? They are on the wet side of the sump cover business and dont' matter as to seal
2) Who cares if the studs unscrew instead of the nut? Given that you're not a gorilla with the torque and can thread something back in without cross threading what's the harm?
3) Iffin' you put the magic goop on the stud,... and for some reason the stud likes the nut better than it does the block anyway,...you're asking the stud to scrud through the dried crystaline locktite carrying bits of it with itself while it's backing out of a soft aluminun case threading. Which would you prefer,...back screwing via smooth threads,...or a sceechy grinding backscrew through broken crystals.
Don't answer that.
4) Iffin' you put the magic goop on the stud,.. and it does it's job,.. I mean REALLY does it's job,.. ie: clean dry threads, proper torque,..etc. and it HOLDS,.. I mean HOLDS like the red version is supposed to according to the mfgrs rhetoric,... and then the stud is boogered up by afore mentioned speedbump in the Lowe's parking lot,.. and then you need to get said nut off,.. well ,.. you've got a problem,.. and it's name is Broken Studley. Which more often than not requires the use of Mr. Vice grip,.. Also known as the Hillbilly Gripall.
The use of the blue Locktite might mitigate this marginally.
Your choice.
Steve.
- Ron LaDow
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 8092
- Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:45 am
- Location: San Francisco
Sump plate studs. Lock Tite? Good? Bad? Please advise.
"2) Who cares if the studs unscrew instead of the nut? Given that
you're not a gorilla with the torque and can thread something back
in without cross threading what's the harm?"
As a matter of good practise, threading a steel fastener into aluminum should be done once and it should be left there.
Yes, you can get away with threading and unthreading a couple of times, but some aluminum comes out with the fastener each time.
Thanks,
Ron LaDow
Post generated using Mail2Forum via email.
you're not a gorilla with the torque and can thread something back
in without cross threading what's the harm?"
As a matter of good practise, threading a steel fastener into aluminum should be done once and it should be left there.
Yes, you can get away with threading and unthreading a couple of times, but some aluminum comes out with the fastener each time.
Thanks,
Ron LaDow
Post generated using Mail2Forum via email.
Ron LaDow
www.precisionmatters.biz
www.precisionmatters.biz
- Rink Reinking
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 125
- Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:01 am
This is a quote, I did not write it.
"Some diligent searching will locate the proper studs.
Variable lengths are available on each end of the stud.
The center (un-threaded) area must be raised IE: larger
than the threaded portion"
Here are my questions-
Okay, call me lazy. Who can tell me where these "fat" studs can be found? At one of the vedors? If so, please speak up.
"Some diligent searching will locate the proper studs.
Variable lengths are available on each end of the stud.
The center (un-threaded) area must be raised IE: larger
than the threaded portion"
Here are my questions-
Okay, call me lazy. Who can tell me where these "fat" studs can be found? At one of the vedors? If so, please speak up.
- Richard Shilling
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 790
- Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:40 pm
- Tag: Ex 356 Mechanic
- Location: Shoreline, Washington, USA
- Contact:
Lots of Questions
It's interesting how if we were in conversation it would be easier to get a handle on a question. Why are you using longer sump studs? The ones I've replaced are pretty much the same as the originals. If they are too long there is the slim possibility of snagging a stud when you drive over something.
Loctite is just that. It keeps studs or bolts tight. Studs should stay in the case and the nut should be the remove/install mechanism. But, if you strip a stud, or run over a rock and it's lockited in place it may be difficult to remove. I'd use one of the gasket sealers to stick the stud in place and to keep oil from oozing down around the stud. Don't use too much, you don't want sealant inside the engine, just put it on the bottom 2/3 of the stud.
If the reason you are replacing studs is to prevent leaks, the sum plates are frequently dented in where the nuts go over the studs. Make the plate as flat as you can. When you're done it will probably still leak a little - mine does!
Richard Shilling
Loctite is just that. It keeps studs or bolts tight. Studs should stay in the case and the nut should be the remove/install mechanism. But, if you strip a stud, or run over a rock and it's lockited in place it may be difficult to remove. I'd use one of the gasket sealers to stick the stud in place and to keep oil from oozing down around the stud. Don't use too much, you don't want sealant inside the engine, just put it on the bottom 2/3 of the stud.
If the reason you are replacing studs is to prevent leaks, the sum plates are frequently dented in where the nuts go over the studs. Make the plate as flat as you can. When you're done it will probably still leak a little - mine does!
Richard Shilling
Richard Shilling
1965 356C dolphingrey
1965 356C dolphingrey
-
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 405
- Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:23 pm
- Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Sump plate studs. Lock Tite? Good? Bad? Please advise.
All,
I bought a Custom By Design sump plate. It came with a set of studs, nuts and washers. The nut end of the studs have allen fittings so the studs can be held from rotating as the nuts are removed. I found the setup helpful to keep the studs positioned in the case when removing the nuts.
Regards.
Jim Beam
-----Original Message-----
I bought a Custom By Design sump plate. It came with a set of studs, nuts and washers. The nut end of the studs have allen fittings so the studs can be held from rotating as the nuts are removed. I found the setup helpful to keep the studs positioned in the case when removing the nuts.
Regards.
Jim Beam
-----Original Message-----
Post generated using Mail2Forum via email.From: Rink Reinking <reinking@u.arizona.edu>
Sent: Aug 8, 2009 10:39 AM
To: 356talk@356registry.com
Subject: [356Talk] Sump plate studs. Lock Tite? Good? Bad? Please advise.
This is a quote, I did not write it.
"Some diligent searching will locate the proper studs.
Variable lengths are available on each end of the stud.
The center (un-threaded) area must be raised IE: larger
than the threaded portion"
Here are my questions-
Okay, call me lazy. Who can tell me where these "fat" studs can be found? At one of the vedors? If so, please speak up.
------------------------
Rink Reinking
1958 356A Sunroof Coupe (Racecar)
1967 912 Coupe (Daily driver)
Tucson, AZ
520-626-9168 (W)
1963B (T6) Coupe
1987 3.2 Carrera
1985 FJ60 Landcruiser
1993 Miata
1987 3.2 Carrera
1985 FJ60 Landcruiser
1993 Miata
-
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:09 am
- Location: SW-Florida
Sump plate studs. Lock Tite? Good? Bad? Please advise.
Hi Jim, Members of the List,
If you were to dig out the instruction sheet that was provided with your
MCBD Sump-Plate, and re-read instruction #6, you would find a suggestion to
use a little lock-tite on those stud-threads.
---------
Actually if you had flushed out the old stud-holes with Brake-cleaner with a
shop-rag as back-up inside the case, then it would have been to your
advantage to put a little [Red] lock-tite on those threads.
---------
Then using the little Allen-wrench provided you are able to screw in the NEW
& LONGER STUDS to the correct depth.. leaving I believe 19-mm remaining.
---------
That Red-Lock-Tite provides an "extra" bit of seal between the new stud and
the Aluminum case, reducing the probability of leaking or dripping.
----------
Those 19-MM will account for the 2-Gaskets, Wire-strainer, the new MCBD
Sump-plate, Washer and Nylock-Nuts.
----------
I don't believe it was our intention to encourage you use the Allen-wrench
to hold the stud steady as you removed the nuts.
It was provided to enable you to insert the studs correctly to the desired
depth. That's why it is suggested that you use the Lock-Tite.
-----------
Thanks for your confidence in the products we develop, and offer to the
356-Community.
Regards,
Vince Cappelletti
Registry Member #5491
Rep F/MainelyCustomByDesignInc.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Beam" <lglbeam@earthlink.net>
To: <356talk@356registry.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 2:06 PM
Subject: [356Talk] Sump plate studs. Lock Tite? Good? Bad? Please advise.
If you were to dig out the instruction sheet that was provided with your
MCBD Sump-Plate, and re-read instruction #6, you would find a suggestion to
use a little lock-tite on those stud-threads.
---------
Actually if you had flushed out the old stud-holes with Brake-cleaner with a
shop-rag as back-up inside the case, then it would have been to your
advantage to put a little [Red] lock-tite on those threads.
---------
Then using the little Allen-wrench provided you are able to screw in the NEW
& LONGER STUDS to the correct depth.. leaving I believe 19-mm remaining.
---------
That Red-Lock-Tite provides an "extra" bit of seal between the new stud and
the Aluminum case, reducing the probability of leaking or dripping.
----------
Those 19-MM will account for the 2-Gaskets, Wire-strainer, the new MCBD
Sump-plate, Washer and Nylock-Nuts.
----------
I don't believe it was our intention to encourage you use the Allen-wrench
to hold the stud steady as you removed the nuts.
It was provided to enable you to insert the studs correctly to the desired
depth. That's why it is suggested that you use the Lock-Tite.
-----------
Thanks for your confidence in the products we develop, and offer to the
356-Community.
Regards,
Vince Cappelletti
Registry Member #5491
Rep F/MainelyCustomByDesignInc.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Beam" <lglbeam@earthlink.net>
To: <356talk@356registry.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 2:06 PM
Subject: [356Talk] Sump plate studs. Lock Tite? Good? Bad? Please advise.
Post generated using Mail2Forum via email.All,
I bought a Custom By Design sump plate. It came with a set of studs,
nuts and washers. The nut end of the studs have allen fittings so the
studs can be held from rotating as the nuts are removed. I found the
setup helpful to keep the studs positioned in the case when removing the
nuts.
Regards.
Jim Beam
-----Original Message-----
From: Rink Reinking <reinking@u.arizona.edu>
Sent: Aug 8, 2009 10:39 AM
To: 356talk@356registry.com
Subject: [356Talk] Sump plate studs. Lock Tite? Good? Bad? Please advise.
This is a quote, I did not write it.
"Some diligent searching will locate the proper studs.
Variable lengths are available on each end of the stud.
The center (un-threaded) area must be raised IE: larger
than the threaded portion"
Here are my questions-
Okay, call me lazy. Who can tell me where these "fat" studs can be
found? At one of the vedors? If so, please speak up.
------------------------
Rink Reinking
1958 356A Sunroof Coupe (Racecar)
1967 912 Coupe (Daily driver)
Tucson, AZ
520-626-9168 (W)
-
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 405
- Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:23 pm
- Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Vince and All,
Absolutely correct about the instructions. When I installed your plate and stud kit, I decided to first try it without using the Lock-Tite. I wanted to see if there would be a leak problem. That was about a year or so ago. Slight seepage/drips that way but nothing significant. Next time I take the sump-plate off I will probably try the procedure using Lock-Tite.
The sump-plate is a very nice product and you folks were kind enough to do a limited run of plates to accommodate both the drain plug and my VDO oil temp sender unit which feeds a VDO oil temp gauge mounted below the glove box. Works very well.
Regards.
Jim Beam
Absolutely correct about the instructions. When I installed your plate and stud kit, I decided to first try it without using the Lock-Tite. I wanted to see if there would be a leak problem. That was about a year or so ago. Slight seepage/drips that way but nothing significant. Next time I take the sump-plate off I will probably try the procedure using Lock-Tite.
The sump-plate is a very nice product and you folks were kind enough to do a limited run of plates to accommodate both the drain plug and my VDO oil temp sender unit which feeds a VDO oil temp gauge mounted below the glove box. Works very well.
Regards.
Jim Beam
-
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 668
- Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:02 am
- Location: Washington DC Area
Sump plate studs. Lock Tite? Good? Bad? Please advise.
Vince,
I must disagree with the instructions that come with your sump plate kits, I have installed a number of those kits on engines, "on the stand" and retro fitted during service work. Red Loctite (272) is extremely aggressive (in terms of holding power) and designed to be used on large fasteners in high shear applications-flywheel nuts for example. 272 applied to these 6mm studs creates a situation in which future removal of the stud will require a significant amount of heat and luck! I routinely replace the sump plate studs while rebuilding engines-of the ten, there are,as a rule, three different lengths and and several have "yucked-up" threads-for stock plates I use the kits from Stoddards/NLA-correct length and fat unthreaded center sections (helps to stop the weeping) and blue (242) loctite. They are sealed yet still removable in the future, with a little effort. As Ron LaDow pointed out, removing the studs, all or a few, with each oil change guarantees that the threads in the case will become enlarged-promoting future issues and oil leaks.
Tim Berardelli
Post generated using Mail2Forum via email.
I must disagree with the instructions that come with your sump plate kits, I have installed a number of those kits on engines, "on the stand" and retro fitted during service work. Red Loctite (272) is extremely aggressive (in terms of holding power) and designed to be used on large fasteners in high shear applications-flywheel nuts for example. 272 applied to these 6mm studs creates a situation in which future removal of the stud will require a significant amount of heat and luck! I routinely replace the sump plate studs while rebuilding engines-of the ten, there are,as a rule, three different lengths and and several have "yucked-up" threads-for stock plates I use the kits from Stoddards/NLA-correct length and fat unthreaded center sections (helps to stop the weeping) and blue (242) loctite. They are sealed yet still removable in the future, with a little effort. As Ron LaDow pointed out, removing the studs, all or a few, with each oil change guarantees that the threads in the case will become enlarged-promoting future issues and oil leaks.
Tim Berardelli
Get free photo software from Windows Live Click here.Subject: [356Talk] Sump plate studs. Lock Tite? Good? Bad? Please advise.
From: vincecappelletti@embarqmail.com
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 12:07:35 -0700
To: 356talk@356registry.com
Hi Jim, Members of the List,
If you were to dig out the instruction sheet that was provided with your
MCBD Sump-Plate, and re-read instruction #6, you would find a suggestion to
use a little lock-tite on those stud-threads.
---------
Actually if you had flushed out the old stud-holes with Brake-cleaner with a
shop-rag as back-up inside the case, then it would have been to your
advantage to put a little [Red] lock-tite on those threads.
---------
Then using the little Allen-wrench provided you are able to screw in the NEW
& LONGER STUDS to the correct depth.. leaving I believe 19-mm remaining.
---------
That Red-Lock-Tite provides an "extra" bit of seal between the new stud and
the Aluminum case, reducing the probability of leaking or dripping.
----------
Those 19-MM will account for the 2-Gaskets, Wire-strainer, the new MCBD
Sump-plate, Washer and Nylock-Nuts.
----------
I don't believe it was our intention to encourage you use the Allen-wrench
to hold the stud steady as you removed the nuts.
It was provided to enable you to insert the studs correctly to the desired
depth. That's why it is suggested that you use the Lock-Tite.
-----------
Thanks for your confidence in the products we develop, and offer to the
356-Community.
Regards,
Vince Cappelletti
Registry Member #5491
Rep F/MainelyCustomByDesignInc.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Beam" <lglbeam@earthlink.net>
To: <356talk@356registry.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 2:06 PM
Subject: [356Talk] Sump plate studs. Lock Tite? Good? Bad? Please advise.
------------------------All,
I bought a Custom By Design sump plate. It came with a set of studs,
nuts and washers. The nut end of the studs have allen fittings so the
studs can be held from rotating as the nuts are removed. I found the
setup helpful to keep the studs positioned in the case when removing the
nuts.
Regards.
Jim Beam
-----Original Message-----
From: Rink Reinking <reinking@u.arizona.edu>
Sent: Aug 8, 2009 10:39 AM
To: 356talk@356registry.com
Subject: [356Talk] Sump plate studs. Lock Tite? Good? Bad? Please advise.
This is a quote, I did not write it.
"Some diligent searching will locate the proper studs.
Variable lengths are available on each end of the stud.
The center (un-threaded) area must be raised IE: larger
than the threaded portion"
Here are my questions-
Okay, call me lazy. Who can tell me where these "fat" studs can be
found? At one of the vedors? If so, please speak up.
------------------------
Rink Reinking
1958 356A Sunroof Coupe (Racecar)
1967 912 Coupe (Daily driver)
Tucson, AZ
520-626-9168 (W)
Vincent E. Cappelletti
Post generated using Mail2Forum via email.
- Rink Reinking
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 125
- Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:01 am
-
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 2506
- Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:14 am
- Tag: Official curmudgeon
- Location: Ft Collins CO
- Steve Harrison
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 3301
- Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:39 am
- Location: Auburn AL
Hey Ron,
Sure you're right and I agree with you that studs should stay put as a best practice. But in general most would agree that having the stud come out beats having it break off. Most people go overboard on torque soooo
being gentle and careful is the best insurance. I personally like a washer type safety, like the wavy ones or even lockwashers. I'm not a big fan of locktite in things you want to get apart even occasionally.
Backing out beats breaking off,... that's all I was getting at. Not wanting to stir up dust.
Thanks for your note.
Steve
Sure you're right and I agree with you that studs should stay put as a best practice. But in general most would agree that having the stud come out beats having it break off. Most people go overboard on torque soooo
being gentle and careful is the best insurance. I personally like a washer type safety, like the wavy ones or even lockwashers. I'm not a big fan of locktite in things you want to get apart even occasionally.
Backing out beats breaking off,... that's all I was getting at. Not wanting to stir up dust.
Thanks for your note.
Steve
-
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:08 pm
- Tag: KTF
- Location: South Jersey
Re: Sump plate studs. Lock Tite? Good? Bad? Please advise.
Allen head set screws and Loctite. Zero leaks.