Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera
- Bill Sargent
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 1146
- Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:03 am
- Tag: Faux-Cam
- Location: Seattle, Washington
Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera
Gregory knows I am Porsche deprived here in Beijing so he sent me a teaser photo of the new pushrod 90 degree V drive on his Faux Cam motor. So here we have Faux Cam:
Thanks for following along and Enjoy. Hope to see many of you at Rennsport Reunion V !
and Four Cam:
The sharp eyed among you will notice that the faux V drive distributors rid on the opposite side of the shaft to the real 4 cam. Needed to have the pushrod distributors rotate in the correct direction. Proof of concept is the motor in Al Lager's Abarth Carrera recreation. Now see Nigel's manifolds on his motor.
Notice how the carbs on the faux cam motor with stock Solex manifolds sit a little more outboard than on the 4 cam. This was the motivation for Nigel's new manifold set up, plus the ability to go stealth fuel injected inside the cam boxes.Thanks for following along and Enjoy. Hope to see many of you at Rennsport Reunion V !
Regards,
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
- Bill Sargent
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 1146
- Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:03 am
- Tag: Faux-Cam
- Location: Seattle, Washington
Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera
We had a GREAT time at Rennsport Reunion V this weekend. I got to see many old friends, LOTS of cool cars and took delivery of some parts for the 4 cam motor. Gregory took second in the Gumund Cup with his Devin speedster and got a large trophy. He also came in 5th in class with his 4 cam Elva, which does not sound too great until you understand that the only cars that beat him were the 12 cylinder 917s - all the 908s and 6 cylinder powered cars were behind him. Way go Gregory!
I got to take my car on the track for parade laps on Saturday and it was huge fun, even if we did not go over 70 MPH down the main straight. The Corkscrew is fantastic and the 4 cam motor ran perfectly after Ralfy's dyno tuning! After the racing on Saturday Gregory pulled out the pushrod V drive so I could have a look. Since I last spoke with him he had installed the distributor drive shafts, the oil inlet/outlet fittings and the distributor clamps. Everything look like it fits as designed. Once Gregory gets home to Vancouver he will make the end covers and figure out how to make the internal shaft. Gregory will be able to work more on the V drive over the next couple of months so hopefully before Christmas we may have it running on a motor on the dyno.
Thanks for following along!
I got to take my car on the track for parade laps on Saturday and it was huge fun, even if we did not go over 70 MPH down the main straight. The Corkscrew is fantastic and the 4 cam motor ran perfectly after Ralfy's dyno tuning! After the racing on Saturday Gregory pulled out the pushrod V drive so I could have a look. Since I last spoke with him he had installed the distributor drive shafts, the oil inlet/outlet fittings and the distributor clamps. Everything look like it fits as designed. Once Gregory gets home to Vancouver he will make the end covers and figure out how to make the internal shaft. Gregory will be able to work more on the V drive over the next couple of months so hopefully before Christmas we may have it running on a motor on the dyno.
Thanks for following along!
Regards,
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
- Jim Nelson
- 356 Fan
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- Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:18 pm
- Location: SoCal
Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera
Hi Bill--Out of curiosity, why did you choose the V-drive instead of the "two off the end of the cam banks" distributor drive?
- Bill Sargent
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 1146
- Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:03 am
- Tag: Faux-Cam
- Location: Seattle, Washington
Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera
Hi Jim,
The V drive is for use on pushrod motors, so only 1 cam that is not accessable. Not shown is a mount "bowl" that mounts to the pushrod 3rd piece studs. The V drive body in turn mounts on it. When complete it will allow twin plug operation of a pushrod motor that has a 4cam cooling shroud mounted on the case. In this configuration there is not enough room for Ron LaDow's twin distributor set up or John Wilhoit's 8 wire single distributor.
The V drive is for use on pushrod motors, so only 1 cam that is not accessable. Not shown is a mount "bowl" that mounts to the pushrod 3rd piece studs. The V drive body in turn mounts on it. When complete it will allow twin plug operation of a pushrod motor that has a 4cam cooling shroud mounted on the case. In this configuration there is not enough room for Ron LaDow's twin distributor set up or John Wilhoit's 8 wire single distributor.
Regards,
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
- Jim Nelson
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:18 pm
- Location: SoCal
Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera
Argh, I hate when I ask dumb questions….
- Bill Sargent
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 1146
- Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:03 am
- Tag: Faux-Cam
- Location: Seattle, Washington
Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera
Gregory got back from Rennsport Reunion (and a second place finish in the Gumund Cup race) and was able to do a trial "spin" (literally) of the pushrod V drive - and it worked . He made up a dummy shaft using a 20 mm OD x 40 mm long internally splined shaft with the proper DIN 5463 internal splines and some some additional bar stock. He then press fit the distributor drive gear, added the bearings and used his drill to spin the assembly. The drill had a piece of externally spline DIN 5463 shaft in the chuck to fit in the female spline of the drive shaft. He send me a nice slow motion video of the drive spinning the distributors at about 3000 RPM but unfortunately I can not post movies here, so a screen grab will give you an idea of the test rig (yes, Dr. Fuhrman would be horrified).
Thanks for following along!
Next step will be to figure out how to mate the large diameter bar stock needed to mount the drive gear to the piece of 20 mm OD x 40 mm long internally splined shaft. The internal shaft design calls for 40 mm of internal splines and a counter bore about 1 mm larger than the "ID" of the splines that is 27 mm long. Total shaft length is 67 mm. We considered purchase of a custom internally splined shaft that was 46 mm OD by 70 mm long to make the shaft all one piece. Problem was the cost - $2,800 for enough to make 6 shafts or about $470/shaft, not including machining. We can get the 20 mm OD x 40 mm long internally splined shaft from Amazon for about $100 each. 2 inch steel bar stock is cheap. Just need to mate the two and do some machining. Gregory can do the machining on the prototype so this will keep the cost down. Drawings from the CAD program for parts to be made are shown below:
Once these parts are built and Gregory does another "spin" test to confirm things the next step is to have the mount bowl that bolts to the pushrod motor 3rd piece machined. This is what the V drive body mounts to. Thanks for following along!
- Bill Sargent
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 1146
- Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:03 am
- Tag: Faux-Cam
- Location: Seattle, Washington
Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera
A little more progress to show. Included below is a photo of the prototype internal drive shaft for the V drive. Gregory found an off the shelf (on Amazon) internally splined shaft 40 mm long and 20 mm OD. Internal splines were the correct DIN 5463 11 x 14. The design we have for the internal shaft has the internal splines exactly 40 mm long so this was perfect. Gregory then took some 2 inch bar stock and machined the larger center section that carries the distributor drive gear, machined a 20 mm hole in the middle of it and TIG welded the internally splined shaft in so it protruded the correct amount. On the other side he TIG welded on a smaller piece of bar stock and machined it to 20 mm OD with the correct internal smooth bore. The prototype does not have the keyway to hold the distributor drive gear in place. The gear is interference fit for now. And the groove for the large circlip, like on the crank, also needs to be added; but for proof of concept this works.
Thanks for following along.
Based on the prototype I will modify the CAD drawing to have a portion of the shaft as shown in the drawing below made as one part with a hole slightly smaller than 20 mm to allow for an interference fit of the stock internally splined shaft. The internally splined shaft will then be TIG welded in place and the shoulder for the bearing machined from the TIG weld area.
I also used the CAD software to make a drawing of the T drive shaft so that Gregory could make that part. The drawing was made from a stock 904 T bolt and the length will need to be adjusted for our application by shortening the length from the splines to the T end. The externally splined DIN 5463 shaft is also available on Amazon for about $100 per meter.
The next task for me is to modify the CAD file for the Drive Body mount frame. We decided to incorporate the inner end cap with the frame and eliminate the dowel pins since the "spiggot' of the end cap on the mount frame will center things axially. Thanks for following along.
Regards,
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
- Bill Sargent
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 1146
- Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:03 am
- Tag: Faux-Cam
- Location: Seattle, Washington
Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera
A little more progress on the V drive mount and the internal parts. Gregory was able to machine the keyway on the shaft to hold the distributor drive gear, install the large circlip (same as goes on crank), partially machine the T shaft, machine the internal circlip groove and install the T shaft with spring etc. We need to have the mount frame complete to do a trial mount and determine the final length of the T shaft.
I also modified the internal shaft for how it will actually be manufactured - a stock shaft 40mm long by 20 mm OD with female internal DIN 5463 splines purchased from Amazon and a CNC machined part that the stock shaft fits in and gets TIG welded to. The bearing shoulder is then machined from the TIG weld material that is built up. The only modifications to the V drive body were to lose the small knobs on the body where the dowel pins would have gone. Only a couple of other fine tuning changes to make to the V drive mount in the CAD software and then we are ready to get it CNC machined. Thanks for following along!
While Gregory was working on the internal parts I did the redesign in CAD to integrate the inner end cap for the drive body with the mount frame. We realized we did not need the dowel pins to locate the V drive body to the mount frame if we integrated the inner end cap with the mount frame. 4 less bolts, 2 fewer dowel pins and the same or better functionality. All part of the design process. The change to the installation process is that the holes to bolt the mount frame to the 4 studs on the motor will now need to be drilled based on measurements from the specific motor. With the dowel pins, these holes were going to be a little oversize to allow for centering the V drive on the crank axis. The dowel pin holes would then be drilled so the V drive could be removed and reinstalled with centering maintained. I also modified the internal shaft for how it will actually be manufactured - a stock shaft 40mm long by 20 mm OD with female internal DIN 5463 splines purchased from Amazon and a CNC machined part that the stock shaft fits in and gets TIG welded to. The bearing shoulder is then machined from the TIG weld material that is built up. The only modifications to the V drive body were to lose the small knobs on the body where the dowel pins would have gone. Only a couple of other fine tuning changes to make to the V drive mount in the CAD software and then we are ready to get it CNC machined. Thanks for following along!
Regards,
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
- Bill Sargent
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 1146
- Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:03 am
- Tag: Faux-Cam
- Location: Seattle, Washington
Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera
I mentioned a few posts ago that we encountered an unexpected problem at 5:30 am the morning after we completed the 4 cam motor install - the throttle cross bar interfered with the rain tray in the single grill 356 A engine lid. So the engine lid was about 1 inch from closing. We solved the problem temporarily by mounting the latch tang on the engine lid on some standoffs, so the lid latched but was open about 1 inch. You can see it in the photo below if you look closely at the engine lid.
The simple solution looked to be removing a portion of the vertical rear end of the rain tray, which would then allow it to be bent up and re-welded. The photos below show the idea: And here is a photo of the results. Very clean, and once painted I think most would not notice the rain tray has been modified. There is still clearance between the Carrera screen in the center of the rain tray and the grill as well as a small opening behind the latch tang. All in all an inexpensive fix. After Rennsport I also managed to find and purchase a pair of the Carrera coil resistor boxes. I will need to fabricate and weld the mount brackets to the existing coil brackets at some point when I have a shop of my own in the future. Thanks for following along!
Before taking the car to Rennsport Reunion I wanted to be able to close the lid. There appeared to be 3 solutions - 1) find the early A Carrera throttle linkage that uses small bell cranks down by the case (either forward or rear of the fan shroud), or 2) Find a proper engine lid for a 59A Carrera - twin grills with no rain tray that clear the throttle cross bar, or 3) modify my existing engine lid. Solution 1 is very hard to find parts for and solution 2 is even more difficult. I therefore decided that modifying the engine lid was the best route (I have modified so many other things, why stop here?).The simple solution looked to be removing a portion of the vertical rear end of the rain tray, which would then allow it to be bent up and re-welded. The photos below show the idea: And here is a photo of the results. Very clean, and once painted I think most would not notice the rain tray has been modified. There is still clearance between the Carrera screen in the center of the rain tray and the grill as well as a small opening behind the latch tang. All in all an inexpensive fix. After Rennsport I also managed to find and purchase a pair of the Carrera coil resistor boxes. I will need to fabricate and weld the mount brackets to the existing coil brackets at some point when I have a shop of my own in the future. Thanks for following along!
Regards,
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
-
- 356 Fan
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Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera
Wow, now that's amazing!
- Bill Sargent
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 1146
- Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:03 am
- Tag: Faux-Cam
- Location: Seattle, Washington
Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera
We made some more progress on the 90 degree V drive - Gregory got the mount bowl and outer end cap CNC machined and we are close to having a working prototype. The photos below show the V drive, outer end cap and mount bowl after Gregory machined the cut out in the bottom of the bowl to clear the dry sump oil pump. We knew that we would have to make a cut out, but chose to machine the full bowl and then make the cut manually. Gregory can now supply precise dimensions for the cut out to put into the CAD model.
Thanks for following along!
Now that we have the part in our hands we plan to make a few modifications for the "production" version. The ID of the bowl is currently 140 mm and the crank pulley OD is 100 mm, same as on a normal 4 cam motor. The stock 4 cam V drive bowl has an ID of 127.5 MM, so we will reduce the ID of the bowl to this figure. This will in turn make the cut out to clear the dry sump oil pump a little smaller. We will also likely reduce the height of the mount frame to move the V drive body closer to the motor by a few mm. And last we will cut the mount frame "feet" down some to more closely follow the mount studs on the 3rd piece. This last change to the "feet" will be done manually on the prototype and then added to the CAD model. Thanks for following along!
Regards,
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
- Bill Sargent
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 1146
- Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:03 am
- Tag: Faux-Cam
- Location: Seattle, Washington
Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera
In the last week Gregory made significant progress on getting the V drive mount frame mounted on the third piece. He also completed the T drive shaft and the whole assembly is now mounted on the motor with the oil line feeding the V drive body hooked up. Remaining is the outlet oil line. The series of photos below sows the progress. Should not be long before Gregory can fire the motor up and see how it runs.
Thanks for following along!
Before the motor can be run Gregory needs to complete the oil drain piping off the V drive body and several other small issues. Gregory's motor is one of the Wilhoit 2132 cc motors so should have about the same power as a 2 liter 587/3 motor in "sport" tune as used in the 904. Thanks for following along!
Regards,
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
- Bill Sargent
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 1146
- Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:03 am
- Tag: Faux-Cam
- Location: Seattle, Washington
Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera
Has been a long time since the last post - sometimes life and work get in the way of hobbies. I am still working in Beijing but only until June of next year when I plan to really retire and move into the new family home we are building on Mercer Island. In the last post in March of 2016 we thought Gregory would be running the faux cam motor on the Dyno soon. Then Gregory decided to move and take on the renovation of a house .... after which he needed to build his new shop. So here we are at New Year’s 2017, Gregory has a shop again and is getting the faux cam motor set up on the dyno.
Gregory has found it a little challenging getting an exhaust mounted that clears the dry sump oil pump plumbing, but hopes to have some dyno runs in January.
In the mean time I had hoped to take the 59A to the Emory Campout last July, but when getting the car out of storage I found one of the exhaust manifold studs had stripped in the head. Given the value of the 4 cam motor I decided it was not worth the risk, and took my 64C cab instead.
Once Gregory gets the dyno runs I will share some photos and dyno info. I can then make the mods to the V drive CAD file so we can make some “production” units. The main changes will be to make the mount bowl smaller (same size as a 4 cam V drive) and to make the outer end cap part of the V drive body. We realized that a removable outer cap was not needed as the internal shaft is loaded from the other end. Deleting the separate end cap will reduce CNC machine costs by over $800.
In the mean time I will leave you with a photo of the new shop. Girolift HT9000A single post car lift was delivered last week.
Thanks for following along!
Gregory has found it a little challenging getting an exhaust mounted that clears the dry sump oil pump plumbing, but hopes to have some dyno runs in January.
In the mean time I had hoped to take the 59A to the Emory Campout last July, but when getting the car out of storage I found one of the exhaust manifold studs had stripped in the head. Given the value of the 4 cam motor I decided it was not worth the risk, and took my 64C cab instead.
Once Gregory gets the dyno runs I will share some photos and dyno info. I can then make the mods to the V drive CAD file so we can make some “production” units. The main changes will be to make the mount bowl smaller (same size as a 4 cam V drive) and to make the outer end cap part of the V drive body. We realized that a removable outer cap was not needed as the internal shaft is loaded from the other end. Deleting the separate end cap will reduce CNC machine costs by over $800.
In the mean time I will leave you with a photo of the new shop. Girolift HT9000A single post car lift was delivered last week.
Thanks for following along!
Regards,
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
- Bill Sargent
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 1146
- Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:03 am
- Tag: Faux-Cam
- Location: Seattle, Washington
Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera
One step forward, two back. So Gregory gets the faux cam motor set up on his dyno, cranks to get oil pressure and to quote Gregory “... it spews oil!”. Oil was coming out from under the fan shroud so everything comes off and he finds what is shown in the photo below:
More as it happens. Thanks for following along.
As you can see, the weld around the fan shroud mount block was not made completely around and that is where the oil was coming from. The mount block covers one of the oil galley holes normally under the junction block. The very reputable shop that did the welding appears not to have properly plugged the oil galley hole underneath. So now Gregory has to disassemble and clean everything, heat to boil the oil out, pre weld heat and then weld the remaining section to seal the leak - which hopefully will be successful.More as it happens. Thanks for following along.
Regards,
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
- Bill Sargent
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 1146
- Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:03 am
- Tag: Faux-Cam
- Location: Seattle, Washington
Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera
Well, welding did not work..... too much oil contamination to get a non porous weld. So Gregory measured very carefully and used his mill to uncover the oil pressure sender hole on top of the case. And, with lots of cleaning steps proceeded to tap the hole and insert a sealing plug.
poor image quality due to a screen grab from the startup video. At the moment Gregory is using 009 distributors, which only have 24 degrees advance, to allow 5 degrees at ideal and 29 at full advance. Only ran a few minutes but we can already tell that the oil pressure relief valve to allow oil to recycle to the pump inlet will be needed. Had 80 psi at idle after warm and 110 psi at 3000 rpm. We have 80psi relief valves. The Pauter dry sump pump pressure pump has about twice the output of the late 356 oil pump, hence the high oil pressures.
After a few more runs to confirm things, I will do the CAD work on the distributor V drive body to make the changes discussed a few posts back.
Thanks for following along.
This fixed the problem and he was able to successfully start the Faux Cam motor on his dyno.poor image quality due to a screen grab from the startup video. At the moment Gregory is using 009 distributors, which only have 24 degrees advance, to allow 5 degrees at ideal and 29 at full advance. Only ran a few minutes but we can already tell that the oil pressure relief valve to allow oil to recycle to the pump inlet will be needed. Had 80 psi at idle after warm and 110 psi at 3000 rpm. We have 80psi relief valves. The Pauter dry sump pump pressure pump has about twice the output of the late 356 oil pump, hence the high oil pressures.
After a few more runs to confirm things, I will do the CAD work on the distributor V drive body to make the changes discussed a few posts back.
Thanks for following along.
Regards,
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works
Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works