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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:10 pm 
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Did you hear about the Vegan Triathelon person who was admitted to on the hospital and died of "nothing wrong?"

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:08 am 
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Not sure what your point is. That physicians are often poor at diagnosing?

Did you hear about the 610,000 people who died of heart disease last year? 6/10 of a million.

That's a dozen Yankee stadiums filled to capacity. Don't know if you are a baseball fan, but imagine watching a game in person or on TV every month throughout the year, and every month having the entire stadium full of people keel over.

For comparison, drunk driver fatalities? 10,000 people.

All American soldiers killed in all wars from the Revolution until now? Around 700,000, or roughly one year's worth of cardiovascular deaths.

But your example of one person is relevant how?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:47 am 
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Touchy, touchy, touchy. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:43 am 
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It was humor Edwin. You see when we get rid of cardiovascular disease strokes obesity,diabetes,and most cancers we will be dying of "nothing wrong" BTW I hope you enjoy outliving all your friends. In my opinion most longevity is luck of good genes.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:50 am 
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I didn't read a single comment in this thread from anyone denying heart disease is something to be concerned about, nor that nutrition is a major part of maintaining heart-health. It's your pseudoscience stance on nutrition that's the issue.

You emailed me days ago asking for clarification of my earlier response in this thread. I did't answer then, and I won't now. As most of us have found throughout or lives, it's not difficult to recognize those who are open to further education and those who are not. You have clearly decided to ignore basic physiological and medical science to follow an ill-informed path. So be it.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:35 pm 
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Open to further education ...

Hmmm.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:41 pm 
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I haven't checked the actual wording in Prop 65, but it's likely that the State of California has determined that reading threads about Diet and Health can be harmful to your health.......

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:45 pm 
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Edwin Ek wrote:
Open to further education ...

Hmmm.


Having attended too many medical conferences to count, and extensive involvement with clinical studies throughout a 30 year career, I've stated all I care to.

Paraphrasing Socrates, Those who suffer from ignorance are unable to detect the condition within themselves.

You will turn that around on me and I'm OK with that.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:38 pm 
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Emil,

You didn't respond to my email to allow simple, direct communication, but you seem to want to do so here piecemeal.

Perhaps you are a physician, and one of the ones with no real training in nutrition. But with your Socratic ignorance.

I invite you to have a look at the website of Caldwell Esselstyn. You won't get very far impugning his credentials or published, peer-reviewed research. But it certainly could be momentarily amusing to see you try.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:31 pm 
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I'm not a physician.

My choice to not respond to you personally is simply due to the fact that, as I've stated before, it's fairly easy to tell when one's mind is already set, as is yours.

I was not, and am not, trying to convince you to change your beliefs. I've responded in the open forum to get the point across to others, who you apparently are attempting to influence, that they need to research the subject themselves, and not to take the opinion of a very small minority group of pseudoscientist or their followers.

I'm done here.

Ron, you were right not get involved. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:44 pm 
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If you want to call physicians scientists (and I don't like to), who in their right mind would call Esselstyn a pseudoscientist? You think the Cleveland Clinic is a home for quacks? The hospital consistently ranked tops in cardiovascular care in the US?

Read his biography and research papers, and then splash some water on your face while looking in the mirror.

I am responding to this here, because I don't want a lack of response to be misconstrued. To all, open your eyes, and do some reading.

I knew this topic would stir controversy. There is definitely a preponderance of influences in favor of the aptly named SAD, or standard American diet. But some will have an open mind, and perhaps make changes. It is helpful and useful to hear contravening opinions.

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Last edited by Edwin Ek on Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:54 pm 
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A link to an article from Science-Based Medicine about the Cleveland Clinic: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/clevel ... formation/

For those who can't be bothered to click on the link, here's the headline from the article:
"The Medical Director of The Cleveland Clinic Wellness Institute spewed antivaccine misinformation last week. Why is anyone surprised?"

The "why is anyone surprised" is telling.

As is the case in most organizations, it would be wrong to criticize all physicians at Cleveland Clinic for these less-than-factual beliefs (they do in fact rate highly in cardiac medicine), but Esselstyn appears to be one who should be, if he indeed is where your perception of physiology and its relation to nutrition comes from.

Doctors may not be scientists but their profession is certainly based in science...except for those that base their practice on pseudoscience.

OK, you can have the last word. This is getting monotonous.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:01 pm 
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ENOUGH ALREADY!! Edwin, give it up.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:14 pm 
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Regarding one’s philosophy on nutrition and other health issues, I think you should do what makes you happy as long as it doesn’t interfere with other people.

As a psychiatrist friend told me: Control what is yours to control, and learn to tell the difference between that and what is not yours to control. Thus, you can’t control the behavior of others, only your response to that behavior.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:52 pm 
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Stirring this thread (and controversy) back to life. Apologies that this could be an uncomfortable subject (mortality, long-held beliefs, the American way, etc.).

Something succint I read today: heart disease is the number one killer around the world, accounting for 1 in 4 deaths in the US alone. I repeat myself: there are populations around the world in which heart disease is essentially unknown. Wouldn't it be interesting to understand the discrepancy: leading cause of death versus essentially unknown?

Perhaps not to this (on average older) crowd- which has been exposed to decades of nutritional medical research paid for by industry. And probably believes that diet doesn't have much effect on health, and that genes are the most important. How much research is paid for by industry? Is it 20%, or 50%? Try over 90%. Are these companies altruistic or irrational? No, they are buying the results they want.

We all have heard the raps: eggs don't raise cholesterol, olive oil is good for your lipid profile and arteries (Mediterranean diet), beef provides necessary high-quality protein and is part of a healthy diet, etc. Why don't you hear (louder) countervailing raps? Because they have all the money.

Probably you are thinking, why doesn't this guy shut up about this? Plus, my physician says my cholesterol level is normal (now that I am taking Lipitor) and I passed a stress test. So there, enough already.

Why don't you hear more about the importance of nutrition from your physician, if it is so damn important? Two main reasons: physicians receive almost no training in nutrition (typically one or maybe two courses in 4 years) and there isn't nearly as much money in it. Stenting and bypass surgeries are huge profit centers; talking about greens not so much. Of course physicians are good people, but they are human and respond to incentives, just as everyone does. The incentives are way out of wack.

Roughly half the time, the first symptom of heart disease is death. That includes people who have passed a stress test and have normal cholesterol levels. Do some research. If statin drugs are so effective, and they are so widely prescribed and used in the US, why is heart disease still the leading cause of death?

What is an extra 20 years of vigorous health worth to you?

By the way, I am not some holier-than-though type throwing rocks from the sidelines. I am right in the middle of this. And I agree completely with what Dave wrote above. I am a Libertarian. No surprise, I also believe in the democratization of information. It is easy to miss what is right in front of you.

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