Cad?

[Ron LaDow]

Had lunch today with a Autodesk software engineer and asked him whether any of their products were approaching 'intuitive' for mechanical designers. He simply said he had no idea; as a developer of the product, it seems he has never dealt with those who use it or had any idea what they desired! He did offer some links to some new products; I've spent the afternoon trying one and it sucks. Not as badly as the old ones sucked, but it sucks. Hope to see him again soon.
I've been using Paint to produce drawings for several of my products. It's a 'work around' in that it was never intended to do so, but it does something no CAD program seems to do: I can click on a point and drag over to there and a line is drawn.
Anyone found a CAD program that starts with 'let's draw a line' instead of 'let's learn our menu'?
BTW, the new lathe is now doing everything is is supposed to do, including repeating at well under half-a-thou. The lathe is not the issue; we'll see if Grizzly stands behind their product.

[Dennis ODonnell]

Ron, I had a similar bitch when designing instrument panel placards a week ago. A guy who does laser engraving stopped by the hangar and recommended Aspire CAD/ CAD CAM. He thinks it's superior to Autocad at half the price and intuitive. (They ditched Autodesk.)

I know; "friend of a friend" recommendation but there's a free 30D trial copy available. I haven't tried it; I'm using T square, scale and triangle, (nostalgia), but resisting Yardbirds background music.

<http://www.vectric.com/products/aspire/trial.html>

[ray nelson]

Ron
As an Architect I used CAD programs for years and found most of them fairly complex to learn and use. That of course was compounded by the pain of them issuing revisionsevery 6 months to force you to buy a new program. Long story on that but it's like the car companies changing styling every year to sell cars. Got to keep a revenue stream coming in to keep the lights on at the factory.
Autocad was and is a very powerful program to cover a multitude of disciplines and as the years progressed became even more powerful and more complex.
They did use a very clever marketing plan though by not "copy protecting" their early releases. That meant that thousands of illegal copies went out into the market. Although the early versions were slow, clunky and hard to learn by default it beat out other programs and since each program had equally hard to learn protocol the commands were different enough to make switching from one program to another a discouraging effort. That doesn't even take into consideration the nightmare of connecting the hardware like printers, plotters and different computers. They usually didn't work after the change to a new program.
One of the early demo examples from Autocad showed our Solar System then allowed you to zoom into the Earth's Moon and then further down to the surface of the Moon to reveal a plaque left by the Astronauts! That took some huge computational power and complexity. That combined with the do all for every user has made the program very powerful but hard to learn.
Anyway as an Architect, I too found Autocad kinda like killing flies with a shotgun and began using CADvance and found it more intuitive and better suited to my needs. Of course all of my engineers still loved Autocad so sharing drawings was always a pain even when using DXF files. There was always something that didn't translate.
One of the advantages CADvance had was to allow the user to set "world size" thereby speeding up the computations and allowing the user to adjust the smallest dimension to their needs. Still it was not all that much easier to learn but they always copy protected their programs so they didn't revise them as much. BTW CADvance does allow you to draw lines by clicking on one point then another to draw a line (I think Autocad too does it)
So in your case, it sounds like you're not doing super complex drawings if you can use Paint, so even Cadvance would probably be overkill but you may want to take a look at it. Also some of the Architects I know are using 3D modeling programs which can be easily converted to 2d or orthographic drawings. Still pretty complex to use but great for visualizing a building or object. That doesn't cover the embedded information possible now so don't know if you would want that or even need it. Also take into account what CAD programs will work with CAM programs you're using if that's your ultimate goal. Make your life easier although Windows has cleaned up a lot of those problems.
I never used any Apple programs so no experience with those products but I suppose they too had some of the same issues (Apple hardware was just too expensive and in the early years there weren't many if any CAD programs that ran on Apple then there was the problem of the Engineers and file transfer!).
Do a search for CAD programs, I'm sure there are some available that are fairly simple to use now. I do think though that if you're designing to .00001" you're forced to use one of the big boys.

Ray

[Bruce Hagopian]

Thanks Ron for confirming what I've always suspected. Those guys writing the programs have no idea what it means to use the product to get actual work done. To them, it's just a game to see what else they can do with the program.
Autodesk started out catering to small users selling direct tot he user. They have grown well beyond that now and left the small guys behind.
If you want to spend more time in that format, try "Draftsight". It is a free, 2D AutoCad clone. There is a pro version with more features you don't need to get started. It still requires a learning process, but, the price is right and you can draw a line by picking a start point and end point.
Draftsight is from the same company that has "solid works" which is an expensive program more oriented to machine design.
And best of all, with CAD, you don't have eraser crumbs all over the floor.

[Ron LaDow]

I was really attracted to 'draw a line', so a bit of a search landed me on tutorials for Draftsite. The first one had a black field and the first lesson was changing it to white: *8* clicks, not one of which was obvious (click on "tools", select.......). Who is in charge of that stuff? 'C'mon: "Right click on the field, select size or color or X and then pick..."
So a random search lead me to 'cad for dummies': TurboCAD ( https://www.turbocad.com/ ). There is s free trial, but unlike the TinkerCAD I tried, it's resident on my machine rather than cloud-based. Before I load it, has anyone used it? I'm always curious regarding how much I end up paying for the 'free' software.

[Ron LaDow]

Instead of adding this as an edit, how about a new post?
I'm looking forward to seeing the guy again since I now have a question. And the answer might well be 'you don't know what you're talking about', as it often is when those with slight knowledge of a complex issue propose a solution.
But instead of starting with a complex, un-intuitive system and attempting to simplify it, why not start with an intuitive system and add what complexities are required?
Paint is intuitive as hell, works quite well for simple orthographic drawings, but it has no dimensional feature, it cannot do sections from drawn objects and it could use more shapes in the library (arcs less than 360* for example).
Comments from anyone here?

[Glen Hamner, Jr]

So Ray, I thought all artichokes knew about MAC's. If anyone is into common sense graphics and has not dipped into the MAC world, welllllll, ya really don't know what you're missing. Back in the 80's when everyone was using Dos, my world came alive with MAC. Still have our first MAC box, and it still works. Maybe we'll give it to the grandkids one day. There are currently 5 MAC's of different vintage supporting the things we do with electrons at home. Even Cheryl who cut her teeth on Windows, uses a MAC running Windows. One day, even she may see the light. For those bound to the PC world, well, there really should be a hell for those who've lost their way. Wish I had something to show that I drew with a MAC, but, I still find the graphite on velum and paper more comfortable than hunting around with a mouse.

AIA or bust

[ray nelson]

Glen
As an Architect that had to make a pitiful living doing it I can assure you that the Apple products weren't ignored on purpose. When CAD first appeared in the 70's and early 80's they were huge and expensive mainframe systems forced into use by Government agencies and the military (they were the only ones that could afford the $100,000 entry cost).
In the 80's, once the desktop products like the IBM PC started getting enough computing power people began developing rudimentary CAD programs like Autocad. I don't think Apple was ever a real player at that time and their pricing was not competitive with the PC clones coming out of Asia.
Apple and the MAC in particular, was the darling of the Photoshop and Graphics users and didn't require the huge computations CAD required. Every line on a CAD program is the result of a mathematical formulae whereas graphics programs are based on pixels. Two different technologies. Zoom in on a graphics program enough and you see the pixels do that on a CAD program and you still see a line.
While the 2D printout looks simple, AE drawings are deceptively complex being developed by multiple operators using multiple layers and dimensionally exact relationships. A typical drawing can have from 10 to 100 layers each carrying different information all relating to the other layers.
Anyway the MAC (which used the technology already developed by I think Bell Labs) introduced the more friendly and easier to use OS which appealed to many more people. Having used old DOS CAD programs I can tell you they were a real challenge but like I said I don't think any really competitive Apple based CAD existed until more recent times (within the last 15 years maybe?).
Once Windows came out the playing field was leveled and since the Windows based CAD programs already had a big head start and usually significant investments in hardware and learning, Architects and Engineers were not eager to change horses and that old problem of file transferring was still a concern. Even today I would guess 90% or more practicing AE's are using Windows based programs with quite a few are still using the IBM protocol systems.
Hardware costs and comparability are still an issue and believe it or not the Architecture and Engineering industry/business isn't a cash cow. I would guess most plumbers can make more money and for sure the air conditioning contractors do and let's not forget Porsche Repair shops maybe
So you see it's not a case of I like Apple or I like windows it's a case of what works and what can make the most money at the least cost. BTW this is being typed on a MAC (my son convinced me to get it because of it's better security) but I still use a PC on Windows for any CAD work.

Ray

[Glen Hamner, Jr]

Ray,

Had you been reachable off line, I would have continued our discussion with a private note. However, for the faithful, please bear with these two artichokes just a bit more.

In my early years, working for architects at night, after working during the day for the Navy as am enlisted gurnt, I found the reality of office life less than appealing. Dealing with one or two clients early on, I was convinced there had to be a better way to live one's life.

I hear the current and historic crops of graduates think a parallel bar is a gymnastics tool. Triangles and circle/elliptic templates are are for cookie cutters, and a three sided ruler, why would anyone need one of those. My thing has always been graphite and mylar, sketch pad and ink or 4H lead.

Fate would have it that during my thesis year my better half came into the lab with supper and an additional 5x7 card. She handed it to me and pleaded that I look into the situation. It was a notice that Eglin AFB was looking for a new architect. I told her this was a civil service position. When in the navy I had worked for an architect at our base and the folks in Public Works did not seem like my kind of people.

Well, 35 years later I left the government. The experience was top drawer. I never regretted the decision, well, there was that time about two years in when I was ready to show them my backside. When I confided my feelings to my supervisor, he convinced me to hang in there a bit longer. Eventually the glass ceiling opened and my horizons began to expand. Not to bore you, but life in the fast lane was always a rush. Made plenty of friends over the years and was instrumental in seeing that the lives of many a service person was better than I found them.

Life in the slow lane is quite pleasant, especially when you have a few Porsche to keep you busy and out of harms way. The day finally came when I told the AIA I was stepping back and would not be paying my dues any longer. Well, they went off and made me an offer I could not refuse. Placed me on emeritus status so that the monthly rag falls into my postal box at no expense. All those years helping to keep the profession alive with my annual dues, well, that's about the end of that. One thing about being an artichoke, the skills never leave you. There is always something or someone needing a helping hand. Passing it forward, a wonderful way to find one's way towards becoming like the dodo bird.

[M Penta]

MS Visio is quite intuitive (similar to paint), free too. It has changed over the years though, now it is less engineering oriented and better suited for flowchart/process mapping. Engineering template libraries can be purchased separately and are included with pro package, but not really necessary for regular drawings with out symbols.

I use it a lot for basic mechanical design and lay out.

[ray nelson]

Glen
Interesting story. I stopped beating my head against the wall in the private sector and worked for the government for the last 20 years first for Metro Dade County then the OAS in DC followed by the University of Florida and finally Florida Atlantic University. Fully enjoyed working for the state University system which made it possible to retire. Had I stayed in private practice I'd still be burning my eyes out chained to a CAD station.
BTW I had a project at UF that was in Niceville for a joint Eglin/UF Engineering facility. I hated that drive from Gainesville to Niceville and back. The GC for the project used a roofing sub from Alabama (it was a metal standing seam roof) that leaked from day one. It probably took 2 years to get it fixed and I had to make monthly inspections to fight with the GC.
Where did you get your degree? I got mine from UF and graduated in 1968. I bought my '62 S90 while I was there in 1967. Still have it.
I'm currently renovating a house in Boca and when I finish I'll sell and head back to Hoggetowne (Gainesville)
I'll email you my personal email address.
Ray

[Neil Bardsley]

Have you ever tried visio?



When I was drawing flow chats etc I found it the best one to use.

[Mike Ruddy]

I know nothing about this subject. I wish I did, I'm still using a pen and ink and when I moaned about the blots to a clued up friend he suggested I try Sketch Up.

It's free, it's Google and it's supposed to be straightforward, maybe it's worth a look.

http://www.sketchup.com/