where to trim outer longitudnal

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ScottBerry
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where to trim outer longitudnal

#1 Post by ScottBerry »

got the lower speaker box section fitted in and aligned with outer longitudnal, but unsure if i need to trim part of the longitudnal end or leave as is. note the green tape section that extends out. do i trim this back - remove the section covered with green tape to continue back the flat base of the lower speaker box flange. anyone have a picture or advise? appreciate any help
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where to trim end of longitudnal.jpg
1960 356B (110196) restoration project in progress
1968 912 Restoration Complete

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Phil Planck
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Re: where to trim outer longitudnal

#2 Post by Phil Planck »

Scott
I see the rocker assembly and your threshold patch. I don't see an outer longitudiinal. The bottom of your threshold is too high assuming your rocker is in the correct orientation. It should be flush with the rocker threshold(flat part with the 3 holes). Eventually the 2 flat pieces are spot welded together. The front of your threshold patch should have a flange and be in line with the flange on the rocker threshold. The large front closing panel is spot welded to those flanges. I would take a time out and study other cars, factory diagrams, other posts to make sure you know how everything fits together.
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David Gensler
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Re: where to trim outer longitudnal

#3 Post by David Gensler »

Scott,
Phil has nailed it. The bottom of your door cell panel is too high. Hopefully this is all just rough fit and nothing is permanently cut and welded yet.

Sorry I couldn't reply sooner. Things have been very busy for me this week. This is what I was talking about when I said to make sure the front portion of the outer longitudinal was bent correctly. The last pair I purchased from RD were incorrect, and it looks like yours are too. Trimming the outer longitudinal in the correct location is very easy (its diagonal, going down from the higher flange to the lower flange). But it is sometimes harder to describe in words, since we all use slightly different terms for things. I'll see if I can provide a photo from one of my projects a little later today.

DG
David Gensler

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Re: where to trim outer longitudnal

#4 Post by David Gensler »

Here you go Scott. You can see the diagonal cut in this photo from my Swiss Miss thread on http://www.abcgt.com. This is how the seam was originally done in this area. Now you must straighten and re-bend the front flange at the door cell on the outer longitudinal so that it is at the correct elevation.
DSC01211.JPG
DG
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Re: where to trim outer longitudnal

#5 Post by David Gensler »

Here is how the area between the long and short ledges gets finished, showing the diagonal trimming. The long flange gets trimmed where it intersects the rear face of the hinge bracket, going diagonally down to meet the rear end of the short ledge. There is a lap weld along the diagonal cut with the bottom face of the hinge piller.
DSC02015.JPG
This is how the door cell looks with the rocker panel attached
DSC02009.JPG
This is the problem you must correct with your outer longitudinal at the forward short flange. These are two R side longitudinals. The forward one was purchased several years ago and has the correct "step" between the two flanges at 50mm. The one behind was purchased recently and is incorrectly bent with a 25mm "step", which has the effect of placing the bottom of the door cell too high and thus the misalignment you see when you try to install your rocker panel.
DSC02017.JPG
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ScottBerry
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Re: where to trim outer longitudnal

#6 Post by ScottBerry »

Thank you all for your guidance and support with information, advice and pictures. Okay, I think I get what you are saying. Good news – nothing fixed in place – all pieces are only held by cleco clamps.
I checked the lower flange on the outer longitudinal and you were correct – the depth only measured 25cm reason why the flange was above the small threshold sill.
With rocker placed in position I determined the depth should be 45cm – just shy of suggested 50cm. I cut it down and rebent the flange at the proper height.
The rocker panel now mates well – the small threshold sill is on the same level plane as the lower speaker box metal and platform (part will need to be remade (to short now to mate up with the cut line further up towards the speaker pot.

The pictures you sent should the addition of a small guesset angled from top of upper flange on outer rocker to the lower flange for the small threshold sill. You will note in the photos that the outer longitudinal – along the upper flange that tucks under the door sill extends frontwards past the hinge support area. It looks like it is too long and this needs to be trimmed back the edge of the A pillar and from there the angled gusset piece would be welded along the edge. I am confident of the placement and fitment of the outer longitudinal – the bottom flange along the floor edge follows the right lines including at the angle where it heads towards the pedal wall and at the back the rear longitudinal closing panel lines up well – the outer longitudinal cannot be slid back to the rear any further.

Thanks for our help.
Attachments
you mentioned the need to add an angled gusset piece - is this where it would go (need to be lowered down behind) with the left edge running vertical with edge of A pillar - resting on lower flange of outer longitudnal
you mentioned the need to add an angled gusset piece - is this where it would go (need to be lowered down behind) with the left edge running vertical with edge of A pillar - resting on lower flange of outer longitudnal
the upper flange edge of the outer longitudnal extends past the edge of the A pillar - does the need to be trimed back with the hashmarked piece and green tape piece removed?
the upper flange edge of the outer longitudnal extends past the edge of the A pillar - does the need to be trimed back with the hashmarked piece and green tape piece removed?
the edge of the small threshold sill - the step down is lined up well with the edge of where the lower speaker box base
the edge of the small threshold sill - the step down is lined up well with the edge of where the lower speaker box base
level of lower speaker box flange and small threshold sill is on same horizontal plane
level of lower speaker box flange and small threshold sill is on same horizontal plane
1960 356B (110196) restoration project in progress
1968 912 Restoration Complete

David Gensler
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Re: where to trim outer longitudnal

#7 Post by David Gensler »

Scott,
Looks much better now. That short flange being in the wrong place could sure foul a guy up!

The forward end of the long flange gets trimmed as you have indicated with the hash marks in the photo three up from here. The trimming takes off the flange, by going diagonally down to where the cut intersects with the rearward end of the short flange.

There is no small angle gusset. Not sure where that notion came from. What may be confusing is that on an intact car the outside face of the hing pillar extends downwards all the way to the same elevation (and even a little beyond) as the short flange. I assume your repair piece for the bottom of the door cell will do the same. When you offer up the outer longitudinal the diagonal cut mentioned above overlaps sheet metal. Original cars have a lap weld along the edge of the diagonal cut, made with a gas torch, to join the outer longitudinal to the bottom of the hinge pillar.

One more thing, in the photo directly above you show the small threshold sill resting on top of the short outer longitudinal flange. Its my belief that it should be installed below the flange, though I've seen quite a few cars done the way you are showing above.
David Gensler

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Phil Planck
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Re: where to trim outer longitudnal

#8 Post by Phil Planck »

Scott
Agree with Dave, who has much more experience than I at this. A word of caution. DO NOT weld the rocker assembly threshold to the now properly located bottom until you attach the door and get the door bottom gap set to the rocker. Once your two parts are spot welded together, that gap is set.

Nice work
aligning hinge pin hole.JPG
frt with new flange.JPG
clamped 2.JPG
plug welds 1.JPG
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ScottBerry
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Re: where to trim outer longitudnal

#9 Post by ScottBerry »

All seems fairly straight forward now that you provided all the correct steps and information!!!! Can’t thank you enough – this was stumping me – but now with explanation and photos – it has all come together in my head. Now just need to translate paper to metal.

I will have a few hours tonight to continue trimming/fitting and recutting and folding the lower speaker box metal -agaion - but better now then if it was welded. Should go together as prescribed. Will post an update.

The point on the rocker panel is a good one – don’t commit and weld until doors are set – this is where I think I have landed (in the grand order and scheme of things) as my doors are rough (with bondo) so not sure of true shape. Will need to remove lower skin and replace bottom frame as well. I keep hearing different opinions (dors first or rocker first - seems easier to fuss with rocker around door rather than door around rocker) but here is my long-term thinking for order of major milestones so I don’t put the cart before the horse.

Cut, fit and weld in the following order:
1. outer longitudnal (both sides)
2. lower speaker box flange and speaker pot (both sides) – what I am currently doing
3. Additional metal panel/material (that goes around half of the speaker pot) and attaches to lower speaker flange and eventually welded to front closing panel.
4. Weld in gas tank shelf and VIN panel
5. Weld in side battery box panels
From here – not sure - upper trunk panel or battery box. Either finish complete battery box sections including upper nose inner panel or position and weld in upper trunk panels either side and then position front upper inner nose panel and complete the rest of battery box.

After that – I need I think I need to tackle the doors or finish tunnel, heal panel and floors.

I'm thinking heal panel and floors and tunnel before doors.

Then start doors or work on back of car (seats - rear firewall - parcel shelf)
Then redo doors (bottom skin and lower frame) and place in position – then start to work on placement of front closing panel that should follow shape of door then the rocker panel and lock post panel at the same time and then side fenders nose etc.

Thanks for the expert advice as always.
1960 356B (110196) restoration project in progress
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Steve Harrison
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Re: where to trim outer longitudnal

#10 Post by Steve Harrison »

I would definitely get the doors opened up and get the new skin in place at least, check the positioning in relation to the rocker, and tack in place. In fact, I was a big fan of just tacking everything first, including the rockers, door skins, and pretty much every panel you reasonably can (sometimes you can't do this because of the order of layers) but it's soo much easier to get all the juggling pieces that are up in the air registered to one another (gaps) if they're just tacked. Cleco's can do it somewhat, but some things don't lend themselves to clecoing and a little tack weld provides the third (or fourth or fifth, hah) hand you need to get everything to fit right. You can even sometimes make micro adjustments to tack welded panels by tapping/pushing.
Then when you get everything where you like it,...jump around the welding a lot to keep heat down. Otherwise stuff will "grow" or "shrink" without you noticing. Check and recheck as you go along obviously.
You are really doing great work here, you should be proud.

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ScottBerry
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Re: where to trim outer longitudnal

#11 Post by ScottBerry »

Steve some good advice - I think the doors will need to move up on my project list.

Had some time last night to carry on with instruction from Phil and David. Happy with fit now – it all makes sense. Pieces fitting together nicely. I have a NOS speaker box assembly which is was loaned to make the template for the lower section of speaker box base. It too has the diagonal angle cut. If I cut the angle on the longitudinal it would appear that there would be a gap on the back of the rocker assembly around the step up from the lower threshold sill. I am tempted to keep it square – easier to weld and stronger – and it will be hidden by lower hinge when it is back on.

Thanks for all your help. Hopefully will get a chance to re cut and shape the lower speaker box assembly and temporarily fit in. Before I permanently close in I think I will prep some more pieces in the front and them time for some media blasting in this area before I start closing this in.
Attachments
this is looking like a happy fit.  HAd to jack up the longitudinal tight with inner longitudnal and A pillar side to be sure I ahve an accurate measurement for distance to lower flange on the outer longitudnal.jpg
better fit with lower speaker box metal - shape transposed from a NOS piece.jpg
trim backed upper flange on longitudnal back to edge of A pillar frame.jpg
1960 356B (110196) restoration project in progress
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ScottBerry
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Re: where to trim outer longitudnal

#12 Post by ScottBerry »

Worked on getting lower speaker box metal cut and shaped. Lower longitudinal was pressed hard up against inner longitudinal to be sure it was in proper position as lower speaker box threshold piece needs to rest on the lower flange of the outer longitudinal so need to be sure longitudinal was in correct positions . recut metal piece for lower speaker box – bent accordingly . next step is to cut along the top to get it to fit and marry in with were I had cut the metal from the higher up section of the speaker box assembly.

ended up trimming outer long around the A pillar. did not cut on a diagonal from upper flange to lower flange rather cut it square and married it up to the new metal for the lower A pillar. same strength and tidy. Will be covered by hinge.
Attachments
a finished lower speaker box in place.jpg
a finding fold edge to bend up for flange based on same angle as longitudinal.jpg
a lower speaker box in position with side folds complete.jpg
a lower speaker box in position ready to trim upper portion to fit and marry up to upper speaker box area.jpg
1960 356B (110196) restoration project in progress
1968 912 Restoration Complete

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Phil Planck
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Re: where to trim outer longitudnal

#13 Post by Phil Planck »

Scott
Nice work. Here is the threshold as original. Dave has it right with the rocker threshold overlap underneath, not on top as I did. Took this picture for reference but did not use it when I installed the new rocker - duh.
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Hinge pillar threshold.JPG
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Dean Tanner
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Re: where to trim outer longitudnal

#14 Post by Dean Tanner »

I just want to say a big thank you to Scott for starting this thread and David for pointing out the defect in the longitudinal. I had the same issue and was wracking my brain as to why things weren't lining up properly. I found this thread eventually, and things look like they are going to come together nicely. Thanks guys!

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