1961 Coupe

[Adrian Rendle]

This is my first foray into the 356 or, come to that, Porsche world: i bought a Coupe in Ivory, unseen unfortunately....i'll never learn, and it has thrown up an unpleasant surprise: it has had a front ender, left side, hence new wing has been fitted (badly) with loads of filler....thats another story.
But, on measuring the wheelbase, left is 2118mm, right is 2125mm, so, to those over the pond, about 1/4" difference....the inner wing is badly out of shape, and not welded to the outer wing (sorry, fender), and there are ripples around the torsion bars where they come through the inner fender. I have a feeling that the impact was on the top of the fender, perhaps headlight area(the left fender has a headlight bowl replacement panel welded in). Also, the door recess (behind the inner left fender is deformed), and there's also lots of filler along the scuttle area. The front compartment panels (with the steering gear inspection cover) are also deformed.
There are some good pictures here http://s255.photobucket.com/user/ade55/ ... t=3&page=1
I'm especially concerned with the ripple in this pic http://s255.photobucket.com/user/ade55/ ... sort=3&o=9 which is just behind the damper mounting.
I've got a good body shop with a body fixture etc, but i'm looking for some advice for them as to where to apply the necessary grunt. I'm guessing that they will need to check the castor angle, as well as wheelbase, in case the twin torsion bars have twisted, rather than been pushed straight back. I'd really be grateful for any advice: this was supposed to be a rolling restoration job, but has already turned into a major resto.....Adrian

[Adrian Rendle]

here is my main concern

[Adrian Rendle]

here's another

[Roy Smalley]

I have sent you a private email in addition.

Here are my general comments.

A dedicated bench (like Cellette) with the correct fixtures and absolutely, the chassis should only be mounted at factory suspension points for uni-body correction. Clamps, chains at any other location will place abnormal stress, weakening and possibly damaging the body. At the rear that would be the rear torsion bar housings, the transmission yoke mount, and in the front, inserted into each of 4 torsion bar openings.

You may be dealing with length, twist and diamond and that is where a bench with dedicated fixtures comes in real handy. Since a full inspection is not possible with photographs, some general ideas.

The factory workshop manual has all the dimensions you will need, along with the torsion bar housing specs.

The nose, and possibly the battery compartment are going to have to come off for access in order to restore the upper body dimensions caused by the front impact. If the fenders are not welded to the upper part of the side assemblies, I would probably remove the fenders, nose as a unit just to get them out of the way. The chassis will be mounted on dedicated fixtures with the 'bent' mount points displaying themselves because they will not mount, or bolt up the fixtures. The distance from the bolt points will show the directions and amount of "pull" to return the platform to the proper location, which is, all points bolted up with ease and no tension from the pulling/pushing devices. At that point the platform or datum line will be correct, but the upper body dimensions probably will be distorted, and this is where factory dimensions come into play along with knowledge of how to pull/push the upper body components back to specification.

Unless the torsion bar housing, ends, or suspension took a direct hit, It might be that the torsion bar assembly might be displaced but the housing itself is probably not bent. If they don't mount to the front fixtures, that will tell the story on what to do. There is a factory tool that can measure distortion, but simple comparative measurements can do the same thing. DO NOT let them loop a chain or pulling hook over the suspension arms or the torsion bar housing for holding on a pull, front or back.

From what I see, this is not a major big deal. You should be able to 'save' most of the existing sheet metal unless overly stressed or rusty, but that will be determined after the chassis and upper body critical dimensions are returned to specifications.

IMHO
Roy Smalley
www.eurowerks.com

[Adrian Rendle]

thanks very much for that Roy, i had the body shop guy around today and we pieced together what happened: the scuttle has holes all across probably slide hammer holes, and you can see the filler dribbling through....we reckon the bonnet (trunk) flipped and imprinted its profile on the scuttle, either causing or as a result of the accident. And probably the headlamp bowl area caught most of the impact, and , as the fender is quite strong (in compression), it took the inner fender or flitch and the door recess panel (behind the front wheel) with it.
Anyway, he's got a Carliner fixture, so he's going to try to get the correct attachments for a 356.
The top body panels actually look pretty good, with good door and trunk lid gaps (both panels are not original), but the fender will have to come off , as you say. This $35K car has , overnight, turned into a $20K car.
There's also a floor ripple and a lot of rust/holes at fwd outer floor area. I will need a left inner fender or flitch panel, as mine is too bent. There'll not be much strength left to support the torsion bar assy with this rust and if i remove fender, do you think? Still less if i remove the flitch, before it goes to the body shop?
Thanks again, Roy....Adrian

[Roy Smalley]

It will hold together..... And post photos as you move along.

[Alain Buchert]

Adrian, it must absolutely so check the two front tube, if they are not folded, will require cutting the front of the 356.use a measurement table for verification.

[Adrian Rendle]

Whilst I wait for a big breaker bar to be delivered for the hub nut , I thought I’d start at the rear: got all the bitumen stuff off to reveal lots of rust: the rust in the rearmost corner of the engine bay was caused by mud lodging on top of the wiring loom where it runs along the outside of the inner rear panel- so I removed all the wiring loom support strips and will be running the loom inside the eng bay.
Also, removed same strips inside eng bay, so I can paint easier.
Rust in top forward corner revealed felt wadding packed into cavity behind the rear side window, probably to reduce noise into cabin. Other side had rag stuffed in there. Then, the lateral cavity at the base of the firewall was stuffed with mineral wool: got some of it out and made holes for treating etc.
The vertical straight panel to which the silencer shield is welded at its rear lower flange was bent, due to previous accident: so reshaped it.
Question: this lower flange: should it be angled back at about 45˚ as shown with my mole grips attached in pic, or should it be vertical?

Then stripped paint/filler from rear: to reveal accident damage: filler was 10mm thick in places, never seen so much of it, even where there’s no dents!...more re-shaping req’d

[Alain Buchert]

see if it can help my picture.

http://buc356.skynetblogs.be/archives/2007/12/index-3.html

[Adrian Rendle]

my car has been involved in an accident, damaging the left side (front and rear fenders and door have been replaced), and the front also....i think the bonnet flipped, the car slid into something on the left side then finally smashed into its front....however, i am certain that the rear t-bar is in the correct place and i am reasonably certain that the right hand end of the front t-bars is in the correct place
anyway, i have completely stripped the car and sat the body on a piece of plywood on the garage floor....the distance between t-bar tubes on the right hand side is spot on factory dimension (less 0.5mm), but the left hand side measures 1.5 mm less than the rhs for the dimension between t-bat holes
question is, should i go to the great expense of straightening it out?
see other pics here http://s255.photobucket.com/user/ade55/ ... t=3&page=1

[Sterling Vaden]

Yes. Of course. The car will never drive right if it is not square and straight. Now that you have it all stripped down is the time to do it.

[Mike Smith]

Adrian,

Don`t guess
All the measurements are in the Workshop Manuals

[David Gensler]

Adrian,
You really may not have a big problem. If I understand the description of your measurement correctly, and it is from the front torsion bar mounting to the rear torsion bar mounting, the workshop manual gives a tolerance of +/- 2mm. Your measurements are comfortably within that range.

When you first posted, I looked at the "ripple" in the sheet metal you noted, and I it looks to me like the normal gathering of the metal in this area when the panels were stamped. I just looked at some of your other photos and I don't see any obvious evidence of a problem.

When I did the frame repairs on my '58, there was a difference of 19 mm between the left and right side torsion bar mountings. It had been hit hard on the left side, and there were obvious deformations in the inner wheel house, trunk walls, and other areas. It was big job to put it right, but ultimately the surgery was successful.

Good luck,
DG

[C J Murray]

I am not a body man, not even close, but, I remember that at the shop where I worked around '69-'70 they had a bench and all the other goodies but they ended up having a long bar of steel machined to fit precisely into the torsion tube so that they could pull out minor damage. It had to fit precisely to keep the tube round and it had to be long for that reason and to have it hang out to gain leverage.

[Sterling Vaden]

OK, I read it as 1.5 inch. 1.5mm is .060", and I wonder how you could measure with that accuracy from front to rear torsion bar centers. 2mm is about .080" about the thickness of two pieces of cardboard.