1956 356 "GT"
- Vic Skirmants
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"
Still wrong; in my opinion.
- Harlan Halsey
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"
Regarding the steering box, I see that Stoddard has new ones listed.
Regarding the push rods, I think Chuck Forge was using some cut to length after market pushrods. Vic, do you know about current sources? Seems like a simple solution.
Regarding the push rods, I think Chuck Forge was using some cut to length after market pushrods. Vic, do you know about current sources? Seems like a simple solution.
- Trond Vidar
- 356 Fan
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"
Some interesting reading
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/line ... _1379.html
Not sure if I get it absolutely correct on this but as a start.
Eg 6 inch long cylinder in cast and delta temperature 250 degrees C (cold to hot)
Cast cylinder would expand to 6.0161 inches
The alu rod would expand to 6.0345 inches
Thats a 0,0184 inch difference, or 0,046736 mm and if valves set cold at 0.15 and 0.20 mm this could give very tight valves at hot engine.
Rod is somewhat longer but head is alu in Porsche world, now the cylinder bolts are steel but maybe they just stretch with the assembly.
CSP have reasonably priced rods
https://www.csp-shop.com/en/engine/push ... 1829a.html
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/line ... _1379.html
Not sure if I get it absolutely correct on this but as a start.
Eg 6 inch long cylinder in cast and delta temperature 250 degrees C (cold to hot)
Cast cylinder would expand to 6.0161 inches
The alu rod would expand to 6.0345 inches
Thats a 0,0184 inch difference, or 0,046736 mm and if valves set cold at 0.15 and 0.20 mm this could give very tight valves at hot engine.
Rod is somewhat longer but head is alu in Porsche world, now the cylinder bolts are steel but maybe they just stretch with the assembly.
CSP have reasonably priced rods
https://www.csp-shop.com/en/engine/push ... 1829a.html
'56A coupe & '63B coupe
- Trond Vidar
- 356 Fan
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- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:28 am
Re: 1956 356 "GT"
Not much happened with the car last month but I have been off to the US east for work & west for the holidays.
I had the pleasure of meeting a few fellow 356 members in Tustin CA for cars and coffee, here we have Rich and Bob if I rememeber correct or maybe it was Santa Claus and Bob.
Peterson Museum, lots of nice Porsche's but best of all were the Bruce Meyer Ferrari's (250 TR and 250 SWB), so nice to let people walk up and even peek inside these $$ cars.
Had to get something better than a KIA for the roadtip to and around Las Vegas++, the Camaro was nice if somewhat limited vision. .....back to rods, rocker assemblies and new piston rings!
I had the pleasure of meeting a few fellow 356 members in Tustin CA for cars and coffee, here we have Rich and Bob if I rememeber correct or maybe it was Santa Claus and Bob.
Peterson Museum, lots of nice Porsche's but best of all were the Bruce Meyer Ferrari's (250 TR and 250 SWB), so nice to let people walk up and even peek inside these $$ cars.
Had to get something better than a KIA for the roadtip to and around Las Vegas++, the Camaro was nice if somewhat limited vision. .....back to rods, rocker assemblies and new piston rings!
'56A coupe & '63B coupe
- Trond Vidar
- 356 Fan
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- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:28 am
Re: 1956 356 "GT"
I have bought a few used parts and starting to plan engine rebuild.
Rods came off the B super engine and the crank is one under and has some scores, it does not seem this rebuild has lots of miles, permanent marker writing on the crank and very tight and tidy crank in all directions.
Scores, they are not new they must have been there when engine was restored last time.
I have a collection of rods I just bough but they are not matched so I need get at least 2 more.
Have 3 sets of heads to choose from but I want to use the new P&C cylinder set from AA, its their low comp Biral cylinder kit, 1780 CC maybe, they have the 20 degree angle.
This rule out the C heads and I am left with '6X B heads (?) and '57 A heads.
The unknown B heads, 101/7? I see 101/5 on my 57 A heads.
The C or 912 heads
Heads from 57 super engine
I am now leaning on rebuilding the '57 super engine instead, the crank is never ground but may need one under, the rods I have are the latest incarnation of the 508 rods and should be good enough for this engine. It's just gonna be a super with the addition of a little more cc. The 508 rods weighed in with under 1.5 gram difference and they fit the crank, 616 rods need be machined they have to wide base.
It is also somewhat more corrcet for the '56 coupe even if that does not matter much. The case and most parts are cleaned and washed and ready for machining so all in all a little less work.
Rods came off the B super engine and the crank is one under and has some scores, it does not seem this rebuild has lots of miles, permanent marker writing on the crank and very tight and tidy crank in all directions.
Scores, they are not new they must have been there when engine was restored last time.
I have a collection of rods I just bough but they are not matched so I need get at least 2 more.
Have 3 sets of heads to choose from but I want to use the new P&C cylinder set from AA, its their low comp Biral cylinder kit, 1780 CC maybe, they have the 20 degree angle.
This rule out the C heads and I am left with '6X B heads (?) and '57 A heads.
The unknown B heads, 101/7? I see 101/5 on my 57 A heads.
The C or 912 heads
Heads from 57 super engine
I am now leaning on rebuilding the '57 super engine instead, the crank is never ground but may need one under, the rods I have are the latest incarnation of the 508 rods and should be good enough for this engine. It's just gonna be a super with the addition of a little more cc. The 508 rods weighed in with under 1.5 gram difference and they fit the crank, 616 rods need be machined they have to wide base.
It is also somewhat more corrcet for the '56 coupe even if that does not matter much. The case and most parts are cleaned and washed and ready for machining so all in all a little less work.
'56A coupe & '63B coupe
- Vic Skirmants
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"
I have never seen con rods with a wide base that would not permit their installation on any 356 crank.
- Trond Vidar
- 356 Fan
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"
These rods I got quite cheap, they were carefully blasted with glass, then ultrasonically cleaned. I had to put them on a table and take down the big end with 400 grit, after a couple minutes it would allow for a 0.20 clearance to crank, after some prep these rods measured a lille less than 19.80 whereas the 508 rods I have are around 19.66-19.68.
Two of them looks to be really good but 20 grams apart, the two with similar weight are pitted and should perhaps be inspected by a specialist, magnafluxed and such. Its good steel from the beginning but I would not have the competence on rating them useable or not in a street engine.
Had they all been great condition and matching weight i would have used them but perhaps taken off another 0,05 to get a little more clearance.
Its stuck
Suppose 20 mm if I cleaned it a little more.
before 400 grit, bad surface
This rod and the other at same weight may be too pitted for all I know.
The 512 gram rod cleaned, wish I had four of this one
Two of them looks to be really good but 20 grams apart, the two with similar weight are pitted and should perhaps be inspected by a specialist, magnafluxed and such. Its good steel from the beginning but I would not have the competence on rating them useable or not in a street engine.
Had they all been great condition and matching weight i would have used them but perhaps taken off another 0,05 to get a little more clearance.
Its stuck
Suppose 20 mm if I cleaned it a little more.
before 400 grit, bad surface
This rod and the other at same weight may be too pitted for all I know.
The 512 gram rod cleaned, wish I had four of this one
'56A coupe & '63B coupe
- Trond Vidar
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 352
- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:28 am
Re: 1956 356 "GT"
Not much new but hoping to close the deal on a 616/13 short block next week, with that option I decided to take down the rest of the 1960 engine, case is stamped 44/59 so it was at least casted back in the 50's. The 57 case in the background likely keen to be the chosen one but building on the pump engine may be more fun, have C heads and Webers for it.
3'd piece off and another small oil pump engine but it should be fine enough,
The picture did not come out great but it it was to illustrate no seal between 3'd piece and case where the oil pickup tube is located, case did have two nice red seals on the left side though (from rear of car) Should not the pickup tube have a seal between case and 3'd piece?
Having split the engine I found mains one under and the case been cut, 61 mm if I remember, forgot to take a photo.
Crank is within specs but it has a couple scores on crank journal for cylinder 3.
Looks like it was rebuilt in the '80s, somene must have been slightly brutal when removing the rear seal.
"Built by Clay" ?
3'd piece off and another small oil pump engine but it should be fine enough,
The picture did not come out great but it it was to illustrate no seal between 3'd piece and case where the oil pickup tube is located, case did have two nice red seals on the left side though (from rear of car) Should not the pickup tube have a seal between case and 3'd piece?
Having split the engine I found mains one under and the case been cut, 61 mm if I remember, forgot to take a photo.
Crank is within specs but it has a couple scores on crank journal for cylinder 3.
Looks like it was rebuilt in the '80s, somene must have been slightly brutal when removing the rear seal.
"Built by Clay" ?
'56A coupe & '63B coupe
- Vic Skirmants
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"
Oil pickup tube is sealed by the timing cover gasket. Later engines used an "O" ring.
- Trond Vidar
- 356 Fan
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"
Thanks Vic, I found your old post about same topic. There is room for a seal maybe it is an idea to install one?
'56A coupe & '63B coupe
- Trond Vidar
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 352
- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:28 am
Re: 1956 356 "GT"
My engine project leaped forward today, I picked up a short block 616/13, at the price of new main bearings and bottom end machining on the 57 engine.
Spotless internals, was dismantled and inspected by ex owner and put together with a Norris 356S cam.
616/13, big oil pump, 616xxx.00 rods, early 1960's maybe?
Back to the dismantled 1959/60 SUPER.
This P&C set should perhaps be NPR if they are from the '80s but I will try finding any part numbers on them. If I understand correct and go with these P&C I guess I must use the C heads. If I rather use the new biral AA 86 mm P&C set I must go with the B heads.
I am not looking for top end power, but a "torquey" engine. Perhaps around 9 in compression, question is should I trust the 86 mm P&C's with a cylinder hone and ring job, get another set of P&C's for 30m degree heads or just go with the new P&C's and rather use the B heads I picked up?
It is hard to decide, on top of this the Norris cam may to be too hot for the engine I am looking to build.
http://www.competitioneng.com/NP356-912.htm "High performance or rally/time trial 10: to 1 or higher".
Power does not scare me but my goal is not to run these small old cars on max throttle and I prefer an engine that lasts for years to come.
Any ideas or suggestions? I now have a stack of parts and an idea of a torquey engine.
Spotless internals, was dismantled and inspected by ex owner and put together with a Norris 356S cam.
616/13, big oil pump, 616xxx.00 rods, early 1960's maybe?
Back to the dismantled 1959/60 SUPER.
This P&C set should perhaps be NPR if they are from the '80s but I will try finding any part numbers on them. If I understand correct and go with these P&C I guess I must use the C heads. If I rather use the new biral AA 86 mm P&C set I must go with the B heads.
I am not looking for top end power, but a "torquey" engine. Perhaps around 9 in compression, question is should I trust the 86 mm P&C's with a cylinder hone and ring job, get another set of P&C's for 30m degree heads or just go with the new P&C's and rather use the B heads I picked up?
It is hard to decide, on top of this the Norris cam may to be too hot for the engine I am looking to build.
http://www.competitioneng.com/NP356-912.htm "High performance or rally/time trial 10: to 1 or higher".
Power does not scare me but my goal is not to run these small old cars on max throttle and I prefer an engine that lasts for years to come.
Any ideas or suggestions? I now have a stack of parts and an idea of a torquey engine.
'56A coupe & '63B coupe
- Vic Skirmants
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Re: 1956 356 "GT"
There is no space there for an O ring. If you do it wrong, the seal could be sucked into the oil pump.Trond Vidar wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:27 am Thanks Vic, I found your old post about same topic. There is room for a seal maybe it is an idea to install one?
- Trond Vidar
- 356 Fan
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- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:28 am
Re: 1956 356 "GT"
Okay, got it no sealing ring then!
Next step is to ID these Piston and Cylinders so that I can get a set of rings for them. 3 compression rings 2 mm width and the oil scraper at 5 mm. Some markings but I haven't found out what brand they are. These seem good with moderate use, not out of round and all pistons within 0.5 grams.
Unless these P&C's are considered bad quality I see no reason not reusing good parts, I'd rather use the money on better oil system or a new aluminum cooler. I am up north in a cold climate so heat is not really a problem and I only do 2500 km between oil changes. If I cant get an ID on these or they are rated as crap parts I'll have to stretch to a set of AA biral P&C kit, perhaps those with JE pistons but that will eat of the engine budget.
...quite a few minutes later.
Seems like the late Maestro ID'ed them as NPR's. I could get any set of 86 mm 2x2x2x5 mm rings then?
https://porsche356registry.org/archive/3655
https://porsche356registry.org/archive/2309
I will have to measure them again before getting rings and if they check out I'll keep these to honor Harry, never met him in person but I do remember him from the old Porschephiles email list back in the 1990's.
Next step is to ID these Piston and Cylinders so that I can get a set of rings for them. 3 compression rings 2 mm width and the oil scraper at 5 mm. Some markings but I haven't found out what brand they are. These seem good with moderate use, not out of round and all pistons within 0.5 grams.
Unless these P&C's are considered bad quality I see no reason not reusing good parts, I'd rather use the money on better oil system or a new aluminum cooler. I am up north in a cold climate so heat is not really a problem and I only do 2500 km between oil changes. If I cant get an ID on these or they are rated as crap parts I'll have to stretch to a set of AA biral P&C kit, perhaps those with JE pistons but that will eat of the engine budget.
...quite a few minutes later.
Seems like the late Maestro ID'ed them as NPR's. I could get any set of 86 mm 2x2x2x5 mm rings then?
https://porsche356registry.org/archive/3655
https://porsche356registry.org/archive/2309
I will have to measure them again before getting rings and if they check out I'll keep these to honor Harry, never met him in person but I do remember him from the old Porschephiles email list back in the 1990's.
'56A coupe & '63B coupe
- Juha Vane
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 312
- Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:06 pm
- Location: Sumiainen, Finland
Re: 1956 356 "GT"
You could use VW 1600 first oversize piston rings, they are 86 diameter and are 2x2x5. Probably easier to get and a lot cheaper.
Are you coming to Riksmötet in Sweden?
Are you coming to Riksmötet in Sweden?
KTF,
Juha Vane
Finland
'59 308
'63 356
'85 911
Juha Vane
Finland
'59 308
'63 356
'85 911
- Trond Vidar
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 352
- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:28 am
Re: 1956 356 "GT"
Hello Juha, thanks I just ordered a set of AA piston rings 86 mm, they were around $55. They come with 3 comp (2 mm) and one oil scraper 5 mm so should be fine.
Yes, maybe Riksmötet that would be nice. Where is it going to be this year?
Yes, maybe Riksmötet that would be nice. Where is it going to be this year?
'56A coupe & '63B coupe