Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera

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Brian R Adams
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Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera

#286 Post by Brian R Adams »

Bill Sargent wrote:Brian - the short answer is yes, a weber for super 90 intake manifold could be made,
My '59 is a Super 75, but I get the drift, thanks.

The Super 90 would be Solexes I believe, and for those heads+manifolds the "Adapto-plate" works great to mate the Webers. The problem is the Zenith-equipped car requiring the fat, ill-fitting aftermarket manifold.

Brian
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Joris Koning
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Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera

#287 Post by Joris Koning »

Boy, that original intake cover looks familiar 8)
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Bill Sargent
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Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera

#288 Post by Bill Sargent »

I wondered where Nigel got the original! Thanks for the help.
Last edited by Bill Sargent on Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Regards,

Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
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Bill Sargent
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Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera

#289 Post by Bill Sargent »

Last week Nigel's machinist came through with the stainless steel crank pulleys. We went with stainless due to the cross section at the bottom of the V belt groove. The original design had about 2.5 mm while our redesign of the pulley gives us a minimum cross section of 4 mm, which we thought might not be enough if the pulley was made of aluminum. Hence the move to Stainless steel.
Front of the new stainless steel pulley.  You can see the ridge where the zinc plated mild steel trigger wheel will sit.  Holes to mount the trigger wheel remain to be drilled and tapped.  Titanium machine screws will hold the trigger wheel in place.  Note also that the pulley has been designed to look like the 4 cam version.
Front of the new stainless steel pulley. You can see the ridge where the zinc plated mild steel trigger wheel will sit. Holes to mount the trigger wheel remain to be drilled and tapped. Titanium machine screws will hold the trigger wheel in place. Note also that the pulley has been designed to look like the 4 cam version.
Back side of the pulley.  Note the chamfer near the outside edge.  This is needed to clear the webbing around the crank nose on the 3rd piece.
Back side of the pulley. Note the chamfer near the outside edge. This is needed to clear the webbing around the crank nose on the 3rd piece.
Side view of the pulley.  The thick section on the front is there for two purposes.  First to provide room for the trigger sensor to mount and be centered over the teeth without hitting the fan belt.  Second reason is to provide some "meat" for the holes that will accept the titanium machine screws holding on the trigger wheel.
Side view of the pulley. The thick section on the front is there for two purposes. First to provide room for the trigger sensor to mount and be centered over the teeth without hitting the fan belt. Second reason is to provide some "meat" for the holes that will accept the titanium machine screws holding on the trigger wheel.
Once the pulleys are complete, the the V drive will be ready for a true running test on one of Ralfy's motors - Hopefully some time this spring.

On a different subject, on the drive back to Seattle from Santa Fe Ralfy and I talked about paint color. I was planning to return to the original Meissen blue with ivory hard top, red upholstery and oatmeal carpets when the car is taken back apart for metal and paint. Ralfy however pointed out that this color scheme would really not match what the factory would have chosen for a Carrera GS/GT race car - not "mean" enough. Got me thinking, nothing else is stock so why feel bound to return to the original color? We talked about silver with a black hard top, but there are a lot of silver race cars. We then hit on stone gray with a black hard top, green upholstery and green carpet. Or maybe go with the wine red upholstery and oatmeal carpets since the speedster seats in the car have already been done in wine red and oatmeal. There are stone gray cars out there, but I have never seen one with a black hard top.

So here is the original color combo - Photo is a factory one of a 57 Carrera cab and can be found in Conradt's book.
58 Carrera Factory Photo.jpg
And here is a photo of a stone gray speedster being pushed into John Wilhoit's shop.
Yes, I know it is not a cab and soft top, not hard top ..... but you get the idea.
Yes, I know it is not a cab and soft top, not hard top ..... but you get the idea.
OK - opinions please! And thanks for following along.
Regards,

Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works

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Joris Koning
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Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera

#290 Post by Joris Koning »

Stone grey with either red or green interior and a black hard top would be bitchin if you ask me. I'd stay with the oatmeal carpet though.

I have always liked glacier white also which is not a common color
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Adam Wright
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Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera

#291 Post by Adam Wright »

My favorite A color is Auratium Green, to me it just screams special. That with a white top would be stunning.
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Bill Sargent
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Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera

#292 Post by Bill Sargent »

Received a note from Nigel earlier this week saying that the stainless crank pulley is nearing completion. In order to ensure accurate and repeatable drilling and mounting of the trigger wheel on the pulley a jig was made.
Jig is used for drilling both the trigger wheel and the pulley.
Jig is used for drilling both the trigger wheel and the pulley.
Then the holes in the pulley need to be tapped to accept the 3mm machine screws, not easy in stainless.
Steady and slow.
Steady and slow.
More in a day or so on the design of the crank fire trigger sensor clamp.

I plan to be at the LA Lit meet as will Ralfy. Ralfy will likely have the V drive unit with him to display - not sure which booth but there can't be too many V drives on display. Thanks for following along!
Regards,

Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works

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Bill Sargent
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Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera

#293 Post by Bill Sargent »

Well, I have been having fun with the great firewall of China today. For some reason it would let me access all of the Registry web site with the exception of the talk forum. So I turned on "browse in private" and wala, I was in. Possibly "browse in private" does not tell the server where you are, and our webmaster has received "specific and verifiable information about a threat" from China.

In any event Nigel has made a lot of progress with the trigger sensor bracket and the final assembly of the crank pulley, V drive mount and sensor. First step was to design and make the sensor clamp, followed by test fitting.
First step in making the sensor clamp was a CAD drawing and then water cutting blanks from 25 mm aluminum.  Partial machining has been completed in this photo.
First step in making the sensor clamp was a CAD drawing and then water cutting blanks from 25 mm aluminum. Partial machining has been completed in this photo.
Sensor bracket blanks 2.jpg (34.22 KiB) Viewed 5209 times
The blanks are then placed on a rotary table for milling.
The blanks are then placed on a rotary table for milling.
Sensor clamp installed with sensor retracted to check clearance for belt changes - Looks good!  Belt slips easily past the withdrawn sensor and up between the crank pulley and V drive mount plate.
Sensor clamp installed with sensor retracted to check clearance for belt changes - Looks good! Belt slips easily past the withdrawn sensor and up between the crank pulley and V drive mount plate.
Sensor bracket - belt removal.jpg (35.14 KiB) Viewed 5209 times
Now check for running belt clearance.  OOPS - does not clear.  Need to mill material from the clamp body - which was planned anyway.
Now check for running belt clearance. OOPS - does not clear. Need to mill material from the clamp body - which was planned anyway.
Sensor bracket - belt clearance.jpg (34.76 KiB) Viewed 5209 times
So back to the mill to refine the top of the sensor clamp.
Sensor clamp with nice half round profile milled on top to allow for running belt clearance.
Sensor clamp with nice half round profile milled on top to allow for running belt clearance.
Reinstalled and belt clears nicely in all directions.
Reinstalled and belt clears nicely in all directions.
Side view showing sensor in place and belt clearance.
Side view showing sensor in place and belt clearance.
Now we had to think about how to get the sensor positioned "on the leading edge of the 11th tooth from TDC" as recommended in the Electromotive set up manual. We are using the Electromotive ECU that can be programed with a laptop so we can have a custom advance curve. Based on Electromotive's recommendations we needed to use the 1/2" diameter round sensor, with its center positioned at the edge of the 11th tooth. Simple solution was a 1/2 inch diameter pointed dowel.
Positioning tool in sensor clamp in place of sensor for set up.
Positioning tool in sensor clamp in place of sensor for set up.
Sensor bracket set up tool.jpg (35.56 KiB) Viewed 5209 times
Close up of the point on the positioning tool.  Makes it easy to position the sensor.  The sensor clamp is held to the V drive mount plate with bolts in slots that allow the clamp to be moved a total of 6 degrees, or 1 tooth on the trigger wheel.
Close up of the point on the positioning tool. Makes it easy to position the sensor. The sensor clamp is held to the V drive mount plate with bolts in slots that allow the clamp to be moved a total of 6 degrees, or 1 tooth on the trigger wheel.
Sensor bracket set up tool detail.jpg (32.65 KiB) Viewed 5209 times
To assist with sensor set up there is a small window in the V drive mount plate so you can see exactly where the setup tool is positioned on the trigger wheel.  May need a mirror when installed to set it up, but it will work.
To assist with sensor set up there is a small window in the V drive mount plate so you can see exactly where the setup tool is positioned on the trigger wheel. May need a mirror when installed to set it up, but it will work.
Once set, the sensor should not need readjustment. If a fan belt needs to be changed, you simply loosen an allen bolt in the clamp body, slide the sensor back out of the way and change the belt. When the belt change is complete you use a feeler gauge to set the sensor to trigger wheel clearance before tightening the sensor clamp. Should be pretty reliable.

Speaking of reliability, we have already mounted the V drive on a running motor to check for vibrations, harmonic or otherwise and found none. Later this month Ralfy will have a test motor down in LA for dyno tuning of the crank fire set up. The motor is built on a 912 case with LN 90 mm P&C for 1883 cc displacement. Twin plugged with 10.0/1 compression. The owner wants to run 48 IDA Webbers on tall manifolds (which should look pretty good with the 4 cam shroud) so the dyno tests will focus on the advance curve, carb jetting/venturis, and cam advance/retard.

The next post should have some better photos of all the final components. Thanks for following along!
Regards,

Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works

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Bill Sargent
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Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera

#294 Post by Bill Sargent »

Headed to California tomorrow for vacation with the family. Will end up in LA for the second week and will be at the Lit Meet and Swap meet. Ralfy should have one of the crank fire V drive units with crank pulley, mount bracket etc at the Lit meet on display - same one we had in Santa Fe at the WCH. Looking forward to some warm clean air and seeing 356 friends from around the world.
Regards,

Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works

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Neil Bardsley
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Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera

#295 Post by Neil Bardsley »

Bill can to explain to the layman way this sensor is needed? I'm guessing that it is because you want to have an ecu to control the advance curve and timing? Do you think there will be much benefit over having an magnetic / optical twin plug type distributor where you can program the advance curve?

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Bill Sargent
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Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera

#296 Post by Bill Sargent »

Hi Neil,

The sensor is needed to run a crank fire ignition system with an Electromotive ECU. This system allows programable advance among other things. One of the optical or magnetic trigger systems contained in a distributor body with an 8 wire cap (for the twin plug set up) mounted in the normal locaiton would work if the motor was going to be built with a stock fan shroud. This is what John Willhoit and others do. When a 4 cam generator stand and fan shroud are mounted on a pushrod engine case there is not enough room for the larger 8 wire distributor cap. The photos below illustrate the problem.
You can see in this photo that there is enough room for a stock 4 wire distributor cap, but not enough for the larger diameter 8 wire cap.
You can see in this photo that there is enough room for a stock 4 wire distributor cap, but not enough for the larger diameter 8 wire cap.
4 Cam cooling - gen stand vs distrib clerance 2.JPG (30.43 KiB) Viewed 5071 times
And a slightly different view.
And a slightly different view.
The other reason is appearance. One could run a small distributor type trigger unit that could key two 4 tower coil packs, but my preference is not to have a distributor in the stock location with the 4 cam shroud - looks odd in my opinion. Hence the development of a faux crank fire set up to hold the coil packs and integrate the trigger sensor. At first glance it looks like an early narrow V drive, and in fact the distributor bodies Nigel makes can be fitted to a factory V drive if a 4 Cam owner wanted to fit a crank fire system.

If one had a lot of time and money, a factory 90 degree V drive could probably be retrofitted and driven off the crank pulley nut like a normal 4 cam motor, however the cost would be in excess of $10,000 for the parts, before work to figure out how to fit it to the pushrod case. Another solution is what Al Lager designed and fabricated for his Abarth Carrera recreation. Al told me he had significantly more than $10,000 invested to create the new 3rd piece and 90 degree V drive shown below. Al made two motors and John Willhoit had one for sale recently for $50,000 I think.
The 90 degree V drive Designed by Al Lager and Gary Okoren mounts on an entirely new 3rd piece and utilizes stock pushrod distributors and distributor drive shafts.  The drive gear is mounted on the nose of the crank.  The #4 main bearing is eliminated and the new 3rd piece oil seal sits just outboard of the cam gear.  Crank pulley is just outboard of that.  The new 3rd piece also contains an integrated dry sump oil pump that replicates the design Porsche used on the 1959/60 aircraft motors.
The 90 degree V drive Designed by Al Lager and Gary Okoren mounts on an entirely new 3rd piece and utilizes stock pushrod distributors and distributor drive shafts. The drive gear is mounted on the nose of the crank. The #4 main bearing is eliminated and the new 3rd piece oil seal sits just outboard of the cam gear. Crank pulley is just outboard of that. The new 3rd piece also contains an integrated dry sump oil pump that replicates the design Porsche used on the 1959/60 aircraft motors.
Okoren 3rd piece cover & V drive.jpg (42.94 KiB) Viewed 5071 times
Hope this answers the question. Thanks for following along.
Regards,

Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
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904 clone in the works

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Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera

#297 Post by Bill Sargent »

Several folks have contacted me off line asking where to obtain A Carrera oil cooler ducing parts. I just returned from attending the LA Lit and swap meets and found a vendor supplying the complete 356A carrera front oil cooler ducting. Gretener Prototype Engineering (GPE) in California makes a beautifully accurate A carrera oil cooler ducting reproduction. They also supply the cooler mount blocks, the mount brackets and the oil line fittings. Price per side for the mount block, two of the 90 degree oil line fittings, the entire ducting assembly and mount brackets is $US 1395. The can also supply the correct 15mm by 1mm wall hard oil lines pre bent (with some tweaking required for installation). Contact Mr. Urs Gretener at 805-239-2866 or by Emial at gretener@worldnet.att.net.

Wish I would have known about this source a couple of years ago. Might have saved me a lot of work! Many thanks to vendors like GTE for reproducing these parts.
Regards,

Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works

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Bill Sargent
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Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera

#298 Post by Bill Sargent »

And attached below are some photos of the A Carrera oil cooler ducting made and sold by GPE along with photos of the reproduction I used. GPE's is much more faithful to the originals and is very well made.
GPE Cooler mount block with bracket (black part) that mounts the block to the fender brace.
GPE Cooler mount block with bracket (black part) that mounts the block to the fender brace.
Cooler mount blocks I used.  Appear identical to what GPE sells
Cooler mount blocks I used. Appear identical to what GPE sells
DSCN2404.JPG (75.55 KiB) Viewed 4949 times
GPE Cooler ducting.  Note the riveted edge on one corner of the two parts second from the left.  More faithful to the original than my reproduction set.
GPE Cooler ducting. Note the riveted edge on one corner of the two parts second from the left. More faithful to the original than my reproduction set.
Cooler ducting used on my car -  bead blasted in prep for paint
Cooler ducting used on my car - bead blasted in prep for paint
DSCN1541.JPG (65.07 KiB) Viewed 4949 times
GPE Fully assembled ducting and cooler with mount block.  This is what you see looking in the fender well.  The other side faces the horn opening in the nose.
GPE Fully assembled ducting and cooler with mount block. This is what you see looking in the fender well. The other side faces the horn opening in the nose.
Assembled coolers and ducting that I used
Assembled coolers and ducting that I used
DSCN1553.JPG (70.79 KiB) Viewed 4949 times
Assembled coolers and ducting that I used
Assembled coolers and ducting that I used
DSCN1554.JPG (76.94 KiB) Viewed 4949 times
Cooler and ducting as installed on my car
Cooler and ducting as installed on my car
DSCN2416.JPG (94.72 KiB) Viewed 4949 times
Cooler, ducting and soft lines as installed on my car
Cooler, ducting and soft lines as installed on my car
DSCN2505.JPG (93.02 KiB) Viewed 4949 times
Thanks for following along!
Regards,

Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works

ryan base
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Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera

#299 Post by ryan base »

hi bill, i'm enjoying your ongoing project, gushing effusive hyperbole doesn't do it justice. you mentioned your discussions about paint and colors and i wondered if you had seen june 13 excellence mag and alex finigans speedster, stone gray over green, striking combination. your fabrication projects have been spectacular

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Bill Sargent
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Re: Restoring #151489 - building a faux cam carrera

#300 Post by Bill Sargent »

It has been a couple of months since my last post - too much work travel. Lots of trips to south China and Bangkok. But that has not stopped Nigel from working with Jenvey in the UK on the new intake manifold design. On page 18 of the thread there are several photos of Nigel's mock up of the combination intake manifold and faux upper cam box, with the idea that the upper cam box can hold a fuel injection rail and injectors. Now we are on to the real rocket science. Jenvey are modeling the new intake manifold in solid works - see screen shots below - including flow modeling. Shown is the right hand runner of an intake pair.
3D view
3D view
Side view
Side view
Front view
Front view
Once the design is complete in the virtual world, it will be printed on a 3D printer and then tested on a flow bench to make sure it flows as well or better than a stock Solex manifold. The top of the manifold will have a wall thickness sufficient to port for 40 mm to 44 mm Solex carbs.

Thanks for following along!
Regards,

Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab - Faux Cam
#159176 64C Cab
#460603 67 912
904 clone in the works

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