Marks 64C

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Phil Planck
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Re: Marks 64 356C, in process of bulk head/floor replacement

#16 Post by Phil Planck »

Mark

Post some pictures of the front panels that need repair and we can help you identify them. Also, the Stoddard web site has schematics of most all replacement panels including their names. www.stoddard.com, click on 356 and work your way to the sheet metal parts.
Phil Planck

M Penta
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Re: Marks 64 356C, in process of bulk head/floor replacement

#17 Post by M Penta »

Thanks, The catalog was helpful.

I found some time for more prep work this weekend, getting closer now. Soon I will start in on repairs one area at a time.

Once this is done I will replace all brake/fuel lines, restore calipers, etc. I have some 2/0 welding cable I would like to use for battery cable, and all ground straps will be replaced.

Yesterday I picked up a nice luggage rack from Don in VT who has a 62B. Thanks Don, was very nice to meet you. Best of luck with your move to FL!
Last edited by M Penta on Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:47 pm, edited 13 times in total.

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Preston Brown
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Re: Marks 64 356C, in process of bulk head/floor replacement

#18 Post by Preston Brown »

Mark,

My car was a little worse than yours when I started. I work more slowly than you.

http://www.brown-house.net/356project

Scroll down to "Pages" on the right hand side and click "Photo Gallery". I've got pictures on there of all this stuff as I did it, which might be useful.

Also, I'd butt weld anywhere you are cutting out and making a patch, but spot (plug)/lap weld where you are replacing whole panels. And I would go the extra mile to get rid of the perimeter pieces of the pan and stuff and not sandwich them in the middle -- that metal is crap, totally rusty no matter what, and you don't want that in the middle of your fresh welds.

Also I'd get some shielding gas and use non-flux core wire; the metal is really too thin to be welding it with flux-core, unless you are a much better welder than I am.
Preston Brown
1965 356C - http://www.brown-house.net/356project
1987 911 Carrera
2009 911 Carrera S

M Penta
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Re: Marks 64 356C, in process of bulk head/floor replacement

#19 Post by M Penta »

Thanks for the advice, all makes sense.

I'll take a look at the project pics your blog again.

'EDIT' When I browsed through your blog I did not notice the archive pics, just looked through all of them, very helpful. Funny how your car has rust when mine does not, and my car has rust where yours does not. The mouse nest really took its toll to the front pan/bulkhead area. Really glad they did not get into headliner or seats.

Thanks again,

Mark
Last edited by M Penta on Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:37 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Marks 64 356C, in process of bulk head/floor replacement

#20 Post by M Penta »

Making some progress here, longitudinal's and bulkhead repair almost done.What I thought would be simple has taken me a very long time so far. I decided to leave the car in my shop this winter so I can keep moving forward, even though this ties up my only bay. I hope my old daily driver is problem free problem free all winter!

I have been thinking about the engine and have a question on P&C's:

Parts Geek has a pretty good deal on Mahle 8.6:1 cyls @ $1100.

Is the higher compression SC 1600CC cyl kit a better option? originality is a concern, but a bit more power while staying 1600cc would be nice too. I realize there is more to a proper SC upgrade then just the P&C's, but can these be used with no other mods to normal 1.6 to increase performance (work OK with stock heads, carbs, cam etc)? They are more expensive but maybe its worth it if its a good upgrade?

I am not sure which way to go and am interested in opinions here. My initial thinking is just to go completely stock with the 8.6:1 normal cyls.

I have not disassembled the engine yet, but as i mentioned it is stuck from sitting and I'm sure the rings are rusted to cyl.


Thanks,

Mark
Last edited by M Penta on Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Marks 64 356C, in process of bulk head/floor replacement

#21 Post by M Penta »

Well, after some more research I see that the SC engine has quite a few other differences. I'd probably be best off not attempting to upgrade to SC spec. A proper SC upgrade would cost a lot more then my stock rebuild and money is an object.

Whats different about the crank on the SC engine anyway?
Last edited by M Penta on Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dave Wildrick
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Re: Marks 64 356C, in process of bulk head/floor replacement

#22 Post by Dave Wildrick »

M Penta wrote:Well, after some more research I see that the SC engine has quite a few other differences. I'd probably be best off not attempting to upgrade to SC spec. A proper SC upgrade would cost a lot more then my stock rebuild and money is an object. Just changing P&C's to SC would probably work ok, but its not ideal.

Whats different about the crank on the SC engine anyway?
I don't believe the stock C and SC cranks were different.
As long as you are going through the lower end properly, you might consider a good 1720cc big bore kit from a Registry vendor like NLA Ltd. Brad had a good P/C set (cast iron cylinders w/aluminum fins) for about $579 last time I checked.

You can also get a 1720 set of "AA" P/Cs without the aluminum fins for $400 from CIP1 (a VW parts place in Blaine,WA).

Both David Jones (a veteran on this list who has rebuilt many 356 and VW motors) and I (a novice rebuilder) have used these when rebuilding our C engines. David now has 20,000 miles on his C motor, and I have 11,000 on mine (built in February 2010), and neither of us has had any problems with them. I believe Vic Skirmants said he has also used these AA kits several times w/o issues.
Dave Wildrick
Houston, TX
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65C coupe

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Re: Marks 64 356C, in process of bulk head/floor replacement

#23 Post by M Penta »

Thanks Dave,

What else has been changed (from stock spec) on your engine, besides the P&C's?

What is comp ratio now? Did you have to change jets or any other changes to the stock carbs at all?

Both case and heads need to be machined to accomplish this right?

What kind of power gain should one expect with just 1720 kit?

I have read good reviews on these and have no doubt they are good quality, but still not sure if this is the direction I will go. I don't mind spending 1100 on Mahle and not have to machine the case and heads. At first I was going to go with 1720 kit, but not so sure now. Seems like original 1600cc cars are disappearing. I am normally the last guy to be a slave to originality, but am thinking differently with this car.

At this point I do not intend to change carbs, cam, etc. If I were to hot rod this car, I'd probably go typeIV and moth ball the original motor ( I would be very sad to blow up her original motor).



Thanks,

Mark
Last edited by M Penta on Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Marks 64 356C, in process of bulk head/floor replacement

#24 Post by M Penta »

Oh, I thought I read that the 1720's were machine in, but it turns out they are slip in, should have verified this before posting.

I found a nice, simple recipe for a 1720 with Elgin cam, stock Zeniths, stock C heads = 86HP. I could keep the stock p&c's on the shelf or maybe send them to LN for bore/refurbish (depending on condition).

My exhaust is in good shape and I'd like to keep it, do these mufflers generally flow OK for a mild 1720cc? Are there big advantages to changing exhaust on these?

I'm looking forward to this engine rebuild, but am a bit nervous about the cost to it right ( I do not want to disassemble and then have it sit in boxes for the next 5 yrs!). I want to do it once and do it right. I have a couple of helpful books which seem to cover the details, but may still spring for Pellow's books if I can find a set.
There is a very good machine shop about 2hrs from me who knows these engines, I will have them do the machine work and assist with the measuring/inspection.

Not sure if I will go with JE pistons, biral cyl's or just the regular AA kit iron cyl/cast pistons. Seems like many have had very good success with just the regular kit. I must say though, they do seem a little to good to be true at $400 (same price as Pellows book!)...

Thanks,

Mark
Last edited by M Penta on Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:33 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Dave Wildrick
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Re: Marks 64 356C, in process of bulk head/floor replacement

#25 Post by Dave Wildrick »

M Penta wrote:Thanks Dave,

What else has been changed (from stock spec) on your engine, besides the P&C's?

What is comp ratio now? did you have to change jets or any other changes to the stock carbs at all?

Both case and heads need to be machined to accomplish this right?

What kind of power gain should one expect with just 1720 kit?
1. What else has been changed (from stock spec) on your engine, besides the P&C's?

My 65C came with Weber IDF40 carbs when I bought it 11 yrs ago instead of the Zeniths I see on your motor. This should not make a big difference, as Zeniths are very good carbs for a C. I used a new standard C/SC/912 cam in the rebuild because the old C cam was too worn to accept a regrind. I added Ron LaDow’s full flow oil filter. I’m also using the 123 electronic distributor from the Netherlands, but I saw no performance change between that and the 018 distributor or the 050 distributor that I used before; it just means I don’t have to mess with points or condensor anymore.

2. What is comp ratio now? did you have to change jets or any other changes to the stock carbs at all?

I aimed for a conservative compression ratio of about 9.3 to 1, based on measuring the cylinder head volume and use of an appropriate thickness (and number) of copper cylinder base gaskets. I used advice from both Jack Staggs (of San Clemente, CA) and Harry Pellow’s “Secrets of the Inner Circle” for the formula to compute compression ratio.
Because I have Webers, it took some experimenting to get the jets right, but the Zenith experts can advise you on your carbs.

3. What kind of power gain should one expect with just 1720 kit?

With the big bore kit, stock C/SC/912 cam, stock Zenith 32NDIX carbs, and a compression ratio around 9-9.3 to 1, I would expect you to get somewhere between 85 and 95 hp, depending on tuning and how balanced everything is.
As you already noted in your revision, there is no machining involved in installing the 1720 cc P/C kits.

I was impressed with the quality and consistency of the pistons, wrist pins, and cylinders in the AA kit. I saw no variation in the weights of the pins, and there was no more than a 1 gram variation in the piston weights (with rings attached).
Dave Wildrick
Houston, TX
#10230
64C coupe
65C coupe

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Larry Coreth
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Re: Marks 64 356C, in process of bulk head/floor replacement

#26 Post by Larry Coreth »

Dave,
Point of order, the C and SC cranks are not the same, see below.
The SC is counter weighted to help relieve the vibrational stress on the bearings due to the higher RPM potential of the SC.
Attachments
C and SC cranks.jpg
Larry Coreth
Roanoake Rapids, NC

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Re: Marks 64 356C, in process of bulk head/floor replacement

#27 Post by M Penta »

Interesting, thanks for the info.

Long overdue update, unfortunately not much has happened since Spring. Now its already Sept, but I look forward to working on the 356 again this winter.

I did get the longitudinal's done, bulkhead panel in, most everything stripped, cleaned, etched, patched, fr pan fitted. I still need to weld in fr pan but decided to wait until getting everything in the tunnel done (new fuel & brake lines, bat cbl), I would like to get this all done soon so that I can do a final cleaning and get it all primed while I can have the shop doors open. I plan to use 2 part epoxy primer and Wurth stone guard on bottom of pan. I used weld through primer on all blind area's during repairs. I also removed all brakes, tie rods, lines, etc.

As for the engine rebuild plans, they are on the back burner for now since I picked up a good running 65 912 engine.
I saw video of it running on a stand and it seemed to run well with good oil psi. I do not have much history on it other then it was professionally rebuilt and installed in a bug, I bought it from a registry member in Mass who never installed it in his 356 since he found a correct engine for his 356 continental. To some extent I'm rolling the dice on this, but the price was right.

Original engine came out with no trouble and will eventually be rebuilt to stock specs, but no rush since this 912 motor should be fine for now (I hope).
Attachments
IMG_3543_zpsria5vi0i.jpg
Pan Prep 4.jpg
IMG_3507_zpsy89g4bun.jpg
miscsamiandaudistuff001_zps48bb2017.jpg
Last edited by M Penta on Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:27 am, edited 9 times in total.

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Re: Marks 64 356C, a few years later and finally back at it.

#28 Post by M Penta »

Hi Everyone, another long overdue update.

Life has gotten in the way; side tracked on other car projects, major house work, kids, work, etc. I know many can relate!

I need my only shop bay back, where this car has sat for nearly 5 yrs! So time to get this going again!

Most metal work is done and everything epoxy primed. Finally, this year I was able to get the dirty work done before the shop gets sealed up for Winter. Soon it will be reassembly work, which I am looking forward to. I do still have some repairs to battery box and a fender brace, but these will not prevent progress with the many other things I need to do over the winter.

Image

Image

Image
Attachments
Primer 2.jpg
primer 1.jpg
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Last edited by M Penta on Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:28 am, edited 11 times in total.

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Re: Marks 64 356C, finally back at it...

#29 Post by M Penta »

Seam sealer and final coat of primer have been applied (pics before last coat of primer). I decided to leave trans in car and only went up to insulation pad over transmission. It was in very good shape so I did not see the need to strip it off. I cleaned everything with denatured alchohol and dried seams with quick pass of the torch.

I painted the interior floor with 2 coats of SC1000 (like lizard skin) over the epoxy primer. I used it in the front area of my van and was very satisfied with it, so decided to use it in this car. I decided against any sound deadening mats since I worry about trapped moisture. I top coated the entire interior with semi gloss black. It looks very much like it did as original.

I also undercoated the entire bottom of car after painstakingly stripping/cleaning/priming everything except the upper area of wheel wells on my back. I blended the new undercoat into the existing up there since it just would not come off. Whatever this stuff is, it is adhering extremely well and still looks good.

Next I will cosmoline every blind cavity two or three times, then finally get started on interior reassembly. I have a new square weave carpet set, the rest of interior will remain original.

I wish I reg'd it 5 yrs ago! Tax bill on NADA for registration will be a killer. High quality problem I guess, this car makes up for at least some of my many upside down car deals , but I have no plans to sell it anyway.

I also picked up a set of 65 912 5.5 steelies, set of (out of date) Avon vintage tires, and most recently a set of 924 steelies that look brand new with brand new 185/65 toyo's. These are identical to the 5.5 steel wheels from earlier cars. I will use these as driver wheels for now, still need to pick them up in RI. I will leave the ancient Michelins on the original 4.5 wheels. I want to mount the Avons on the 65 912 wheels just to see what they looks like on the car.
Attachments
IMG_3591_zpscp3vfcka.jpg
IMG_3593_zpsmwx9xv4l.jpg
Last edited by M Penta on Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:47 am, edited 9 times in total.

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Re: Marks 64 356C, undercoat and interior paint

#30 Post by M Penta »

Some pics of 1st coat of undercoat, which will have to do until Spring, as my shop is buttoned up for Winter and temps are dropping like a rock. As I mentioned, I still need to do a few repairs on bat box and fender brace also, but these should be easy enough and will not halt progress this winter.

I preferred the appearance of the primer on the interior floor, but the sound deadening coat was necessary and the blk top coat is what it had originally. I look forward to getting the carpet in there.

The gas tank has been blasted and cleaned, the bottom is pitted and I hope I can save it. I did not leak when I got it, but the bottom has some pretty deep pitting and I do not want to reinstall it like this.
Attachments
1st undercoat FR.JPG
1st undercoat rear.jpg
Sound deadening and top coat.jpg
Torsion area.JPG
038.JPG
046.JPG
050.JPG
051.JPG
As sits.JPG
Last edited by M Penta on Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:07 am, edited 5 times in total.

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