Square door handle key orientation

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Hugo Sheers
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Square door handle key orientation

#1 Post by Hugo Sheers »

Hi all, what is the correct key orientation on square door handles? Assuming both sides of the car are unlocked, when inserting the key in the lock should the 'teeth' of the key point the same way on both sides of the car or do you have to flip the key drivers vs passenger side? Thanks in advance

Hugo

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Victor Ingram
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Re: Square door handle key orientation

#2 Post by Victor Ingram »

Hugo
I have a 55 pre-a, to qualify my response.... both handles were restored by Victor Miles.
His attention to quality and detail sets the bar for restoration work.
Drivers side handle the key is inserted with the flat side up, bottom of the key is rotated toward the front of the car with
A half turn to lock.
Passenger side handle the key is inserted tooth side up, flat side of the key is at the bottom & rotated toward the front of the
Car again a half turn to lock.
There is very little “teeth”, actually only one slight depression, it could be worn or even a replacement key?
In summary same key for both locks, flipping key upside down for passenger side.

Hope this helps, I can send a picture of the key if that helps
Victor

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Hugo Sheers
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Re: Square door handle key orientation

#3 Post by Hugo Sheers »

Thank you for the clarification Victor. No photo is necessary, your description is very clear.

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Rick Albro
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Re: Square door handle key orientation

#4 Post by Rick Albro »

The teeth of the key should be down facing on either side. The rotation orientation can be flipped on assembly by orienting the long and short side of the locking rod. Inside the button are two shoulders, the handedness of the lock is determined by weather the long side of the rod is on the same side as the stops or the opposite side of the stops. I will post a series of images shortly...
chirality.jpg
chirality.jpg (492.72 KiB) Viewed 2060 times
if you go to the topic viewtopic.php?f=21&t=49764 the links are active I think in post # 8.
I think the thread viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35945 contains a description of the disassembly process. Perhaps the dialog should be updated with a condensed version of the email string between tony and others...
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=47038
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36688&start=0
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=42407
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41024
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=41001
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40927
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=36609
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38732
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35945

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Hugo Sheers
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Re: Square door handle key orientation

#5 Post by Hugo Sheers »

Thanks Rick, if I understand correctly your view on assembly differs from that suggested by Victor. Question then is, is there a correct answer or are both a 'correct''?

Or are we the butt of another early '50s Stuttgart long-prank...

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Rick Albro
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Re: Square door handle key orientation

#6 Post by Rick Albro »

Hugo,
If you were to examine many un-restored handles, you would find there is a handedness to the orientation. Many of these handles have been restored or mismatched during restoration. Ask yourself the question does it make sense to have the teeth up? Do you believe that the German engineers did not think this through? Many of the factory and early photos do not have enough resolution to show this but the unmolested handles do tell the story. I know that Victor takes a great deal of pride in doing his restorations as good as they can be done and he does ask a lot of question to do the work correctly, this is however, a very subtle detail that is easily over looked. If you are not looking for this difference, could you tell which side is about 0.050" smaller? Most people could not. There are a lot of pitfalls to putting together loose door handles to make a set. It is also possible to re install the handles upside down... put the left handle on the right side and visa versa... which seems to be the heart of your original post. You also did not mention which pre A car you are working on.

Pre A cars up to chassis # 55260 built on December 20 1955 used 54XX series lock codes.
Beginning of A series chassis numbers after 55260 used 75XX series codes until March of 57
From March of 57 until July 15, 1957 641XX series key codes were used
Beginning July 16, 1957 the 57 only handles was used until at least the end of August 1957

Up until March of 57 the thick buttons and thin cylinder configuration was used. The difference as mentioned above is even more subtle on these series of locks. The 641XX series started using the thin buttons and thick cylinder configuration where the attached images show the difference is clear. Victor's car a 55 would have had the thick buttons thin cylinders.
orientation.jpg
orientation.jpg (296.12 KiB) Viewed 2040 times
small and large cylinder.jpg
small and large cylinder.jpg (152.91 KiB) Viewed 2040 times
smvslrg.jpg
smvslrg.jpg (152.21 KiB) Viewed 2040 times

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Hugo Sheers
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Re: Square door handle key orientation

#7 Post by Hugo Sheers »

Bit of background to my original query. Back in 2014 I bought a set of square door handles and in the summer of 2014 sent them over to Tony Euganeo to be restored. On Wednesday, after almost 6 1/2 years they turned up restored and looking superb. The postman left them on the doorstep; I'm glad no-one swiped that package!

Looking at them I noted the key orientation is as described by Victor. It struck me as odd that you would 'flip the key' driver to passenger side hence the original question. I can't remember how they were before I sent them and can't guarantee they hadn't been mucked about with by a previous owner anyway.

I just spoke with Tony. His view is that the correct orientation is that you do need to 'flip the key' i.e. he is in agreement with Victor re key orientation, and that in his view all matched handles left the factory in this way.

My car is an April '56 build T1 and the door handles are not the original ones from my car. Interestingly Tony quoted chassis number 57200 as being the cut over from 54XX to 75XX, citing a factory source for his records. He also advised that he is no longer restoring door handles and that my pair is the last set he would do.

Does anyone have any other data points from known unmolested cars to add?

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Rick Albro
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Re: Square door handle key orientation

#8 Post by Rick Albro »

The door handles used for early Porsche were made by the Witte automotive company.
"WITTE was founded by Ewald Witte in 1899 and started as a factory specialized in the manufacture of latches for luggage/suitcases. After WWII, WITTE Automotive began manufacturing door brackets for the motorcar industry. The VW Käfer (Beetle) was the first car with a door product made by WITTE. A die-casting shop was erected in 1950 to broaden the line of products. Since 1953, the company increasingly strengthened the co-operation with big German and European customers like VW, Daimler-Benz, BMW, Auto-Union and MAN.
https://www.witte-automotive.com/live/C ... story.aspx
https://www.witol.com/live/History/history.aspx"

The changes are documented from the Kardex information and previous surveys as noted in the active links. Whereas there are a few anomalies in the surveys they do not significantly vary from the kardex information. Chassis numbers were not necessarily built in chronologically order, so quoting a chassis number is only an estimate. 57200 is about two months difference but is not consistent with the Kardex records as the change over point. Yes 57200 is past the change over point so Tony's data point is not wrong, his data point does not cite the specific change over. What was Tony"s last 54XX lock? We are all free to modify our cars as we see fit and the orientation is a very small detail. The original manufacturer, the Baxter key code reference, the factory Kardex and previous owner surveys reasonably converge on the same story. Our mutual goal is to preserve and enjoy our favorite cars. We all have various goals for our enjoyment some like showing our cars, some like driving, some enjoy outlaw modification in all sorts of configurations, some obsess over fine details. For the early door locks changing the orientation does not affect the functionality of the lock, unlike the later locks. You have refined your justification for the orientation that you wish to have... that is the benefit and value of these posts. Please post a picture of your car as we all greatly enjoy pre A cars in any state!

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Hugo Sheers
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Re: Square door handle key orientation

#9 Post by Hugo Sheers »

Per the Kardex my April '56 car came with a 54XX key number, so unless this is an exception the transition to 75XX did not take place with the introduction of the T1 A

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Robert Braunsberger
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Re: Square door handle key orientation

#10 Post by Robert Braunsberger »

just to add another data point and although not pre-A, my Jan 1956 T1 coupe #55541 has 54xx series locks which are handed, both sides with the long slot up, so key teeth pointing down.

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Rick Albro
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Re: Square door handle key orientation

#11 Post by Rick Albro »

Thanks Robert!
James Watt, the Northwest vice president of Associated Locksmiths of America, says in the United States, most pin tumbler lock designs require the lock cylinder to be oriented so that the teeth (or “biting’s,” as locksmiths call them) and key blade enter the pin tumbler cylinder facing up. However, most European lock cases incorporated a different design, so the biting’s usually enter face down. Master locksmith Jerome Andres indicated that even the Big Three carmakers disagree: GM makes you insert the keys with biting’s down; Chrysler has you put them in face up; and Ford (and many foreign makes) provides double-sided keys for those of us confused by the other two.
Some argue that the “biting’s up” position is inherently superior, both because it tends to put less wear and tear on the tumbler, and because it leaves less dirt in the lock. Yet others point out, that locks are “handed,” and are sometimes turned “upside down” (with the biting’s down) so that they can be installed in doors where the hinges are on the “wrong” side. As long as the key blade and biting’s are oriented in the correct position for the pin tumbler cylinder, an “upside-down” lock will work properly.
Wafer versus pins… pins have their spring in line with the teeth whereas wafers will have their springs parallel with the teeth of the key. The parallel versus inline orientation reverses or flips the teeth up or down question and makes the emphasis on the drainage issue. Since the Witte locks have drainage to the bottom of the spring, the key orientation is defined.
Relevance: the drainage issue becomes somewhat mute as most 356 cars are not driven with the same frequency and in the same conditions as when they were new. A key lock with either orientation will likely outlast other facets of the cars condition, including rubber parts, brake lines, plastic knobs, paint fading, upholstery wear and tear, and other factors.
Bottom line is that changing the orientation on an established lock setup is riskier than not taking a lock system apart that was not meant to be taken apart. The function is not affected by the orientation, and longevity is unlikely to be measureable given current usage patterns of these cars. Enjoy your car and be proud of your association with the marque.
internals.jpg
internals.jpg (435.44 KiB) Viewed 1963 times

George Kehler
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Re: Square door handle key orientation

#12 Post by George Kehler »

Simply amazing eye for detail, Rick !! Kudos !!
George Kehler II

1955 Coupe
1971 911 S
1997 993 Targa

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Rick Albro
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Re: Square door handle key orientation

#13 Post by Rick Albro »

The change from 54xx series locks to 75xx series locks occurred between August 8, 1956 and August 9, 1956... if we extrapolate the change probably occurred after lunch on the 8 but do we really need to know that close? Some cars on the 8 were likely in progress of assembly but not yet finished until the 9th... ...

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Re: Square door handle key orientation

#14 Post by Jim Wayman »

Rick

When you say 54XX series, doesn't that series run into the 55XX range before the changeover to the 5 digit series?
Jim Wayman

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Rick Albro
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Re: Square door handle key orientation

#15 Post by Rick Albro »

Jim, you are right there is a small run of 55XX codes...
5504
5508
5509
5516
5519
5522
5523
5525
5526
5531
5533
5536
5538
5540
5541
5543
5546
5547
5549
5550
5552
The 55XX codes are strange because they don't fit with the other series of codes. They must have a good story here but I have not unraveled the story yet... I have looked at the codes and the cuts thinking there was some kind of verbal mnemonic that associated the code with the cut... I have not broke the relationship yet..... If you notice the possible codes they do not follow sequentially and some numbers are skipped ... some of the 54XX codes call for the same cuts with different codes.... not all codes numbers are used for 54xx sequences.... There seems to be a correlation of parity in step sizes ... some series do not use some steps, some only use odd steps some only even steps... most codes do not call for more than two step difference in next nearest neighbors... I have been meaning to pedantically go through the codes and write down the rules used to find the mnemonic but time has been short for such deep inquires... some of the missing codes in the sequence are noted to belong to Mercedes and other marques....

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