Simplest and easiest way to change rear camber angle

[Tom Farnam]

Frederic, did you get and read the Workshop Manual pages I sent you with a PM?

All those details are very clearly laid out.

Tom

[Jack Staggs]

If the ride height changes signifcantly depending on direction of travel, you might want to check your rear wheel alignment first. Excessive toe in or toe out can cause the car to "hike up" and "squat down when rolling opposite directions due to dynamic forces.

[S.J. Szabo]

Mr. Prince:

The easy answer to your question is "No, there is no easy way to re-set the rear suspension.... right". However, there are many easy ways to muck it up.

The first complication will be that when you pull off the radius arm, you will likely pull the bar out of the inner spline set as well, so that "marks" will be rendered moot.

Besides the important considerations of angle and toe (and an understanding of the changes that take place with susp. travel), you must also offer consideration for the fact that you are (likely) not working with new parts (bars). There is better than 80% chance that your bars (if not new) will have aged and will exhibit different rates of torque loading. Thus, you could accurately set both trailing arms to the same angle yet the car would not sit square. One must compensate for this by changing the methodology of measuring the radius arm angle.

If it comes down to "easy" or pay, I would recommend "pay".

Do it or pay for it, but Keep 'em flying.

[Frederic Prince]

so you can change the toe in or out for rear wheel ?

[Jack Staggs]

Yes. The spring plate holes are slotted at the axle. Just ahead of the axle there is an extra bolt to serve as a "stop" when re-installing the axle. Problem is, over the years so many things have been changed that it is unknown whether these stop bolts are in the correct position. If necessary the transmission can be shimmed forward or back to achieve more adjustment. Thrust angle is important too.

[Dirk Heinrich]

Fred,

I adjusted the rear of my 356A last year after I practiced on a VW. I believe it is fairly easy and mostly a matter of trial and error. At no cost, just time and patience, you might achieve what you want within 4 to 5 hours (or faster).

An A is more difficult to adjust than a B or C, simply because you cannot hold on to the torsion bar when you pull of the swing arm. That way I had to use a more arbitrary method. It'll be easier for you!

Here is my tip:
- get an idea of how far you want to lower the car
- lift the car up and keep it somewhat level
- disconnect the axles from the swing arm (this is, the next to putting them back on, the real issue, since those bolts tend to be very tight and are hard to reach). either mark or notice where exactly the axle is attached to the swing-arm (it'll be important to find that same spot when you put them back). Do not touch the forth screw/bolt that just seems to sit arbitraryly in the swing-arm holding nothing (it's an alignment screw)!
- measure the distance from some fixed point on the end of the swing arm to the ground - the change in this distance will tell you the approximate change in heights of the car. You don't need a device that measures degrees with this method).
- take the swing arm off (passenger side first) - be careful there might be tension on it!!! You can use a little jack to support it while you pull it towards you of the torsion bar.
- notch the torsion bar 1 notch on the inner
- put the swing-arm back and see if it ends up somewhere close to where you want it (probably about 3cm higher to the ground measured at the same point from where you measured the distance before). You will realize that there are not too many options - maybe 2. If it seems to be either too high or to low, remove the swing-arm again, notch the torsion bar one more notch or two notches back from this position and try again to position the swing-arm. Somewhere there you'll find a good increase in the distance of the swing-arm to the ground. Keep it there.
- now go to the driver side and do the same. HOWEVER: try to keep the swingarm about 1cm - 1 1/2cm lower to the ground than on the passenger side to compensate for the weight of the driver.
- reassemble everything (it's a pain and will take time). Lower the car to the ground carefully and make sure that it is not to low - you will have to roll it back and forth a few times, so it can assume it's "natural" heights. Take a short and careful drive.
- see if you like how it sits now - if not, you will know now how to improve it.

Lowering has an effect on the toe-in. It will not only look a little different, but also handle different (less responsive, but more stable).
Look from the back of the car, if the alignment of the rear wheel to the front wheel looks totally strange. You can see the toe-in (rear wheels pointing toward the center of the car) - see if it has gotten completely out of alignment or seems okay (a little toe-in is desired). If you are not sure, drive by your mechanic ask him or post good pictures here.

Hope this helps! It's a fun and rewarding thing to do by yourself for sure!

Hey, and don't forget to lower the front as well

Here is my old thread regarding lowering, where I report my progress:
http://www.356registry.com/forum/viewto ... sc&start=0

[S.J. Szabo]

We all owe a debt of thanks to Mr. Heinrich for his elaborate demonstration of one of the many "easy ways" to muck up the job.

Mr. Prince: Your questions reveal that a great deal of research will be required before undertaking this procedure yourself. Read the manual. Appreciate the importance of taking measurements (for example, correct toe is v. important as incorrect toe can lead directly to disaster when you least want it. Eyeballing toe is a fool's exercise). Clearly, your best approach would be to pay someone experienced to do the job and observe and learn from the procedure.

You must appreciate that even with optimal suspension settings, the handling of a 356 requires care and respect. Life, limb, and considerable investment hangs in the balance. This is one place where a casual "beat to fit and paint to match" approach will most certainly bite you in the ass eventually.

Keep 'em flying with respect.

[Dirk Heinrich]

We all owe a debt of thanks to Mr. Heinrich for his elaborate demonstration of one of the many "easy ways" to muck up the job.

SJ - your comment seems offensive. I wonder why you need to do that !?

My "demonstration" doesn't divert much from the 'Porsche 356 Owners Workshop Manual' directions (that are great and that helped me finishing the job successfully). Difference is, that I experienced difficulties and found solutions (with the help of fellow registry members) to certain problems that are not mentioned in the manual.
Personal experiences of fellow registry members encouraged me to do it myself. I hope others will have similar experiences and find support for their projects here as well (and yes, part of that support and encouragement is to know what are possible pitfalls of certain alterations).

[S.J. Szabo]

Mr. Heinrich:

I'm sorry to cause offence as that was not the point. The point is that when one works on one's own car, he is free to shortcut and be as sloppy as he wishes for the risk is his (though some consideration is due to innocent bystanders as well). However, it is no favor to encourage others, especially the inexperienced, to adopt similar bad habits. In doing so, you promote risk for others to take in ignorance. This is not supportive; it is misleading.

The places you diverted from the manual were those that involved precision (and extra effort), the very places that insure a safe and proper outcome. (Needless to say, you wouldn't pay a Porsche mechanic to do the job your way, and with good reason.) To hold this up as an example to those who don't understand the difference does them no favor. To illustrate, think of the 12 year-old showing a 6 year-old how to hold a lit firecracker. The big kid may get away with it but the little kid probably won't and in the end, neither should be trying the trick in the first place.

It seems to me that each of us here should do our best to encourage and cultivate the best techiques possible to ensure the continued and safe operation of our cars by promoting a responsible and knowledgable membership. I do not discourage self-inflicted maintenance, fabrication, preservation, or restoration, but I do believe that lazy, ill-informed, imprecise, or sloppy efforts will not....

Keep 'em flying.

[Dave Moline]

I found Mr Heinrichs post a pretty accurate discription of my rear wheel alignment proceedure. Its a pretty simple four or five hour proceedure ( about an hour a side after you figure it out). Document the swing arm position before starting. Make the desired change (start small). Lower car and check results. Make any adjustments by doing the process over again. Time consuming but not rocket science. There is a good website on 914 wheel alignment that gives the relationship between deviation from plumb in inches and degree of wheel camber for a fifteen inch wheel. Easily googled. Havn't ground looped the old girl yet. Dave Moline. Gardnerville Nevada.

[Norm Miller]

Szabo,

What the hell do you do for fun? Sit around and nitpick.

Generally with all the instruments available you still end up with a fiddle factor getting the camber / toe set.
Will it make the car unsafe ? No, the driver is the unsafe factor.

Til the next time KTF

Norm

[Diana Bergen]

Szabo, I recommend you not assume others will have similar failure rates as your' own or that they/we fell so similarly uninspired as to put the task in the hands of "others" . Not all 356 owners/drivers are in the vicinity of Garages capable of doing the work and quite often the results obtained at places of such "disrepair" are far worse than the experience one gets when taking the task on at home , and the lessons learned , coupled w the newfound understanding of the 356 and its cousins , are priceless . Your comment however has little value in the overall goal of "the pursuit" in all things 356 , imho . Dirk , next time you try , i have an adjustable protractor/level that fits on the trailing arm , much like the factory tool , which you can borrow . I used it to check the new bar i installed in the woods of Skowheegan Maine , big shout out to Parker Tyler , who sold me one rear torsion bar , matched from a GORILLA Rack of options , {must have been HUNdreds of pairs } and he was kind enough to have laid out the few tools necessary to do the task. The angles were spot on! So , KTF and keep ' moving.

[S.J. Szabo]

Why am I not surprised that no one gets or cares about the real point here. Does no one have any respect for the concept that poor advice given to the inexperienced can have serious consequences? Telling some neophyte that its okeedokey to just eyeball the toe is simply irresponsible.

Now, I could care less about anyone's knowledgable (or otherwise) choice of risk when deciding how sloppy to get with their work habits with their own cars. But you guys have to keep in mind that there are people out there who come to this site seeking advice that can't tell the difference between knowledge and hot air. In most cases, this is of little matter, but in some areas, like brakes and suspension settings for example, the consequences of error can be substantial. And while it may not bother any of you, the thought of some poor unsuspecting schmo sailing into a corner with uneven wheel loading and toe out in the rear suspension scares the whee out of me.

But clearly not you guys. No skin off your nose. School of hard knocks and all that, right?

Frankly, I think the people in charge should think seriously about the prominent display of some sort of disclaimer on this site.

Keep 'em flying safely.

[Barry Brisco]

S.J.,

I do not think it is either fair or accurate to say that "no one" cares about the importance of providing correct and knowledgeable advice on 356Talk. Clearly many people do. Just as clearly, a question can have more than one answer, unless the question is "What is 2 + 2?"

What I find in this type of public forum is that as discussions progress the truth usually reveals itself. Sometimes the truth is difficult to discern. Just like in the rest of life.

A "disclaimer" seems unnecessary, in my opinion. What would it say? "Do not believe everything you read"? Anyone who needs to be told that probably should not even be driving...and they're not going to pay much attention to a disclaimer.

Barry Brisco

Why am I not surprised that no one gets or cares about the real point here. Does no one have any respect for the concept that poor advice given to the inexperienced can have serious consequences? Telling some neophyte that its okeedokey to just eyeball the toe is simply irresponsible.

Now, I could care less about anyone's knowledgable (or otherwise) choice of risk when deciding how sloppy to get with their work habits with their own cars. But you guys have to keep in mind that there are people out there who come to this site seeking advice that can't tell the difference between knowledge and hot air. In most cases, this is of little matter, but in some areas, like brakes and suspension settings for example, the consequences of error can be substantial. And while it may not bother any of you, the thought of some poor unsuspecting schmo sailing into a corner with uneven wheel loading and toe out in the rear suspension scares the whee out of me.

But clearly not you guys. No skin off your nose. School of hard knocks and all that, right?

Frankly, I think the people in charge should think seriously about the prominent display of some sort of disclaimer on this site.

Keep 'em flying safely.

[S.J. Szabo]

Well Mr. Brisco, I would point out that numerous surveys have consistantly revealed that among the members of Gen. X, Y, and Z (those most likely to be inexperienced mechanics), there is a widely-held belief that "if its on the web, it must be true". The precipitous drop in the patronage of the established news media clearly supports this hypothesis.

I couldn't agree more about what needing to be told that says about one's awareness quotient, but apparently the need exists.