Outlaw 5-Speed Trans (Split from Outlaw Engine thread)

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Edwin Ek
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Re: Outlaw 5-Speed Trans (Split from Outlaw Engine thread)

#76 Post by Edwin Ek » Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:41 pm

Ronald Sieber wrote:It would be really nice to read the news that someone in our community had put together all of the ideas that have been brainstormed in this continuing thread and produced a drop-in 5 speed for our beloved 356s. Something with a highway 5th gear (like my '69 912 had) for those of us who dare to use the interstates. But also something that doesn't require us to chop up or change out the stock suspension components.

I think that a unit under $5K would attract much interest and it sounds doable if enough folks would step up and order. A special 5-speed badge could even be designed for the grill!
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Re: Outlaw 5-Speed Trans (Split from Outlaw Engine thread)

#77 Post by Curt Vesely » Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:18 am

Let me start off by saying that all I know about VW and Porsche transaxles are what I've read on this forum and many others. I would never attempt to disassemble, diagnose and put one back together. But you will never have a drop in 5 speed for $5K. The bottom level Berg 5 is about $5K and with all the trick VW stuff your looking at $10K. The current Berg 5 is the 4th or 5th attempt by Gene Berg to come up with the perfect solution. One of Gene's attempts was to narrow all the gears to fit all 5 in the main case, it was to weak for anything more than a stock engine (about 50 hp). That's why 5th gear had to go into the tail housing (toward the front of the car). On a VW bug it doesn't make any difference because the transaxle is on top of the torsion tube, on the 356 the torsion tube is in the way and you need to use a bridge. At this time I only see two solutions for a 5 speed. Back half the car to 911 irs or the Berg 5. at this point in my life am I going to do this to my very nice 56 T1, I'm honestly not sure...

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Re: Outlaw 5-Speed Trans (Split from Outlaw Engine thread)

#78 Post by Curt Vesely » Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:33 am

Part II, from 49 to 65 Porsche made 78 thousand 356's in that same period of time VW made millions of bugs. The high Performance VW scene is very big with many established company's pumping out all kinds of HiPo parts. There are probably 100 different cylinder heads alone. There are hundreds of camshafts, aluminum cases and on and on. Not so much with the 356. How many of you would actually convert your very valuable cars to a 5 speed? There in lies the problem. Nobody is going to gear up to produce a drop in 5 speed unless they can sell thousands of them and we all know they can't...

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Re: Outlaw 5-Speed Trans (Split from Outlaw Engine thread)

#79 Post by Jacques Lefriant » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:33 am

Hi Curt
Mendeola produced a 5 speed transaxle for the VW offroad and kit car market for say 8K with a few hundred needed to make it feasible. i think Wevo has poduced a swing axle case that uses 901 internals which if you can find an inexpensive core you can probably get by south of 10K. i doubt if the all new robust option will have any chance but the Wevo should be just as feasible as a Wilhoit big engine or a Polo engine.
j
 

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Re: Outlaw 5-Speed Trans (Split from Outlaw Engine thread)

#80 Post by Conrad Carter » Fri May 05, 2017 9:09 pm

What about Vic's tall 4th gear option? Has anyone tried it?
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Re: Outlaw 5-Speed Trans (Split from Outlaw Engine thread)

#81 Post by M Penta » Fri May 05, 2017 10:19 pm

I have not tried it but read that it kind of spoils the nice 3-4 ratios, but maybe a worthwhile compromise if on the interstate/long road trips a lot?

I think a stock C will rev at like 3800 RPM at 75 MPH, seems a bit high to me but apparently is right in the sweet spot.

A freeway flyer trans will require more power and the conversion does require complete gearbox disassembly. These cars are designed to cruise at sustained 80MPH and since I live in hilly area I don't think it would make sense.

Here is a good discussion:



viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8096

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Re: Outlaw 5-Speed Trans (Split from Outlaw Engine thread)

#82 Post by C J Murray » Sat May 06, 2017 8:18 am

My solution on my '63 2133cc coupe was to retain the BBBD ratios but install a 10% taller ring and pinion. A side benefit of this is that the r&p is quieter than an old used one. This solution maintains the gear spacing while reducing rpm on the highway although it does reduce acceleration a little.

Our '59 coupe with factory BBBC gears is a little sweeter on the highway than the later 4D geared cars.

My memory is not good but I believe that the 912s had 5-speed gearboxes with fifth gear equal to that of the 4-speed version. The factory was looking for performance from the 5-speed, not comfort or fuel savings.

More fuzzy memory...aren't the Carrera 2 four-cams geared quite short even though the car was designed as a touring car? Even though the displacement was 25% larger than the pushrod engines the engineers had them spinning faster to make up for their lack of power at pushrod engine cruising rpm.
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Re: Outlaw 5-Speed Trans (Split from Outlaw Engine thread)

#83 Post by Vic Skirmants » Sat May 06, 2017 8:38 am

I think most Carrera IIs had standard gearing. The A Carreras quite often had shorter gears.

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Re: Outlaw 5-Speed Trans (Split from Outlaw Engine thread)

#84 Post by Wes Bender » Sat May 06, 2017 9:50 am

Your memory is good CJ. I had a 5-speed in my '66 912. 5th gear was the same as 4th in the 4-speed 356. What the 5-speed did was to give you 3 gears between the top and bottom gears.
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Re: Outlaw 5-Speed Trans (Split from Outlaw Engine thread)

#85 Post by C J Murray » Sat May 06, 2017 10:54 am

Thanks Wes.

Maybe I was thinking of the older smaller touring four cams. Vic knows transmissions! Maybe Jacques will comment about the gearing in his multiple Carrera 2s? It makes sense that the additional 1000rpm redline would push the cruising sweet spot to a higher rpm, or maybe not. The stroker pushrod broadens the power so low rpm cruising is effortless relatively speaking, not quite Corvette Z06 but very good for a putt putt car.
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Re: Outlaw 5-Speed Trans (Split from Outlaw Engine thread)

#86 Post by GregVandenbussche » Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:30 pm

:arrow:
:D

Dropping this baby in my car this weekend with the 1883 twin plug i just built :
5-speed.jpg
5 speed, 901/902/914 internals, same gearing as my 2C 741 but with the 901 5th : A FN V ZD
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Re: Outlaw 5-Speed Trans (Split from Outlaw Engine thread)

#87 Post by Martin Benade » Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:06 pm

Who makes that case? Is there a nice 5th gear ratio available for quiet cruising?

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Re: Outlaw 5-Speed Trans (Split from Outlaw Engine thread)

#88 Post by Craig Richter » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:05 pm

Greg,
That looks to be just what some of us are looking for! Really looking forward to hearing more about your creation. If it could be available for around 15k, I'd sign up...
 

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Re: Outlaw 5-Speed Trans (Split from Outlaw Engine thread)

#89 Post by Trevor Gates » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:26 pm

Closer to $9K Craig. I was just reading about this on Greg's Instagram page.

https://www.wevo.com/ is the company that makes it.
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Re: Outlaw 5-Speed Trans (Split from Outlaw Engine thread)

#90 Post by GregVandenbussche » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:34 pm

Hi Martin, Craig ,

Hayden from Wevo made that case, I don't have anything to do with the conception, development or else. you need to get a spare 901 or 914 tailshift (70-72) Gearbox as a base for internals, can use any ratio made for the 901, fit right in, no need to modify anything that could affect the value of the car. He is working on a A one too that might need a small mod on the center of the torsion bar tube holder (not visible)
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