Outlaw 5-Speed Trans (Split from Outlaw Engine thread)

For those who couldn't care less how their 356 left the factory!
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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#16 Post by Jacques Lefriant » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:35 pm

Cliff
Because of the popularity of the Aircooled VW for dune buggies etc a whole industry has developed. Stronger gears different ratios better diferential etc. Stock boxes can be improved for as little as $500.00 whole boxes can be had for 5K plus. the serious racers will spend 20-50K for the race boxes for rally, trophy trucks and Score buggies. Another benificary of the VW has been the Hewland MK9 for fomula cars. Unfortunately when VW abandoned our split case box they increased the distance between the gears. Since the VW tunnel and the Porsche tunnel both have side covers i took advantage of that with the Cadrobbi conversion. The way i see it we have 2 feasable choices. 1. a 901 based box with a custom case that permits the swing axle diff. or 2. a VW based box that employs the Rhino case and has more options than the 901 as far as dog box and sequential shifting. Cliff we could build a hybrid and use your puny engine for trickle charging.
j
 

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C J Murray
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#17 Post by C J Murray » Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:02 pm

Does size matter? :wink:
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Craig Richter
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#18 Post by Craig Richter » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:17 am

Jaques, you've been thinking about this! Maybe you're the guy to make it go? I hope so...

901 would have to be a kit, providing a case and bits, and customer finds his own gears, otherwise too expensive. Lots of things are marketed this way, but I think VDub is the way to go. I exploded a bunch of VW trans in the early days of sand drags, then Gene and others finally figured out how to make 'em last. Liberty Pro = indestructible! Available gear ratios, diffs, ring and pinions, cheaper, stronger - all we need is the case with ears to fit in a 356, then you could sell complete units Yeah, right...dreamin' again...

Go Payton.
 

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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#19 Post by Jacques Lefriant » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:37 pm

Hi Craig
A VW based box is very doable. The best thing is there is already a robust casing available it is called the rhino. do to space limitations a 5 spd would have to incorporate the stock reverse configuration which is weak. 4 spds could use more of the custom parts like Hewjand dog non synchro gears. sequential and other improvents would require different cases. if the torsion bar housing tube is deleted or split out you have many more options.
j
 

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Craig Richter
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#20 Post by Craig Richter » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:31 pm

I think there are a lot more potential customers out there than Greg and me, if the word got out that a bolt-in 5-speed was actually available. But remember, NO chassis mods. Checkbook's out!
 

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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#21 Post by Martin Benade » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:46 pm

Way beyond my capabilities but I was thinking a weld-on side cover mounting area (for the non-removeable side), to be machined after welding, new side covers and whatever it takes to use a VW differential carrier, all in a 901 box. If I had the milling machine I would dive in. I also have a checkbook. I would even modify the chassis a little, but I am not giving up my silly swing-axles.

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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#22 Post by Jacques Lefriant » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:59 pm

Hi Craig and Greg
is the 5spd enough of an enticement to overcome the VW bias. I am having a great deal of resistance to the Cadrobbi conversion which is a slam dunk. It seems to me that potential consumers have unrealistic criteria.
j
 

Martin Benade
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#23 Post by Martin Benade » Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:09 pm

I suppose it is too late now but maybe remove all references to VW in the description. You do not have to divulge your sources.

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Craig Richter
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#24 Post by Craig Richter » Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:47 pm

J,
That's a good point...356 guys do tend to be a bit elitist about using real Porsche parts. My own experience with VW development tells me it should not be a turn-off, but what do the other interested parties think?

We sorta hi-jacked this motor thread; maybe Greg should move us to our own spot?
 

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gregorycampbell
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#25 Post by gregorycampbell » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:35 pm

Jacques,

Here are some thoughts on priorities. I have tried to think about what others would want but obviously I have a bias for what I dream of.

1. 5 speed (the whole premise here)
2. no chassis mod.s (there are already VW and 901 options out there if we are modifying the chassis)
3. swing axle (works extremely well, on track, on road, and off road; is time proven; and will ensure appeal to a wide audience)
4. 356 tranny case, (it would sure be attractive, from many respects, if this could be an "internal" modification)
5. intermediate plate (a complicated part to make, but go ahead if you need to)
6. nose cone (I think a new nose cone would be ok as long as it has stock mounting points)
7. hockey stick location (some flexibility here if necessary)
8. cost

Is the difficulty the length we have without getting in the way of the torsion tube?

The distance between intermediate plate and pinion gear?

Or the distance between the mainshaft and the pinion shaft?

Hope that helps
Gregory Campbell
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C J Murray
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#26 Post by C J Murray » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:44 pm

Agree.
'57 Speedster
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'60 Devin D Porsche Race Car - Finally Finished!
'63 GS 2133 coupe
'64 Elva Courier mk4T
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#27 Post by Craig Richter » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:21 pm

I wouldn't care what the case/plate/cone looked like, as long as it just slides in and works. Only show judges look up there!
 

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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#28 Post by Jacques Lefriant » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:26 pm

Hi Greg
1. OK
2. OK
3. seperate discussion see other forum only comes about if utilizing the present 901 conversions.
4. problem yes the 718 box utilizes the case and is a 5spd if repro come down in price it would be a cadidate but the shift rod would hve to be ofset like a mid engine. The 901 case addreses this and makes the use of 901 in the 356 with little modification at least where the shifting and mounting are concerned it requires a slight movement of the engine rearward.
5,6 no sweat
7see 4
8. 718 huge cost but case proper
901 a good comprimise a new case/ differential would be required but it would take 20+conversions to amortise the cost to 3-5K for the new parts and you would have to have a 901 donner.
Rhino case(VW) after market parts 6-10K for totally new units many options as far as ratios would need 50 units to get the cost down another 1-2K
j
 

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Outlaw Engine Choices

#29 Post by Curt Vesely » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:51 am

As this thread is going down Gary Berg is building me a Berg 5 for my 56A. I will make an adapter similar to the ones others have made in the outlaw forum, Gary and I are discussing it. We're starting with a new Rino case with all Weddle parts inside. Ratios are 3.88 R/P, 3.75 1st, 2.25 2nd, 1.58 3rd, 1.21 4th and .89 5th. Many other ratios are available but I like short gears. Price, $6,000. It would be cheaper without all Weddle internals. If anyone is interested I'll keep posting here.

Curt in Arizona...

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Craig Richter
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#30 Post by Craig Richter » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:53 am

Hi Curt,
I was acquainted with Gary back in the day, actually knew Gene and Dee much better, the boys were pretty young, but we had a lot of fun. No 5-speeds yet back then, but I know Gary learned well and is a good race mechanic. It will be fun to follow your progress. Please take pictures and give details.
Not to sound to much like a newbie, but what's a Weddle?
 

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