Outlaw 5-Speed Trans (Split from Outlaw Engine thread)

For those who couldn't care less how their 356 left the factory!
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Craig Richter
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#1 Post by Craig Richter » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:06 pm

Speaking about natural evolution, I would LOVE to have a 5-speed in Speedy, and would pay dearly for such an upgrade, but I do not want to change the whole suspension around to get it. Gene Berg did it with the VW trans; any help out there with a 741?
 

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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#2 Post by Jacques Lefriant » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:19 pm

Hi Craig
Porsche did 5 spds based on the 519 and 644 they were called 690 and 718 but they were meant for a mid engine and could be longer. if you go to coil overs and offset your shift rod you could use them. A better aproach would be to make new caesa for the 901 internals and use the VW diff like we do in the Cadrobbi conversion and then you would not need to change your supension.
 

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Craig Richter
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#3 Post by Craig Richter » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:42 pm

Jacques, that sounds perfect, but casting new transmission cases is a little, no a lot, beyond my scope. I'm not nearly the engineer you are!
 

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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#4 Post by C J Murray » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:06 pm

My Speedster was bought new and raced to a championship by a Dutch immigrant named Hans Remrev. I asked him about his car prep and he grinned and told me that his 5 speed transmission was an advantage. :wink: He bought parts from Denzel(I think) that turned reverse into a 1st gear. He then was able to make the other gears into a close ratio box like we do in vintage racing today. Since that was a violation of the rules, and he had no reverse, he had to be careful where he parked. :shock: He said the competition never caught on. :D
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Craig Richter
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#5 Post by Craig Richter » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:35 pm

Cute story. No reverse is even worse than no heater...

Help me out here, Cliff. I hear just about anything can be scaned and then made on a CNC machine these days. I'll bet you could sell more swing-axle 5-speed conversions than 4-cylinder 911 motors!
 

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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#6 Post by C J Murray » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:16 pm

Craig, I bet you are right! Jacques??????

I changed my ring and pinion 10% taller and left the BBBD gears in place. That works fine with the torque of the 2133 but I wouldn't recommend it for a small engine. I would have loved to install a 5 speed but not a 900 conversion. Jacques??? Here is my club racer 2133 at Jacques' National City CA shop with the man himself posing for a glamour shot. He could do the 5 speed swing axle project if he wanted to. Jacques???
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#7 Post by Craig Richter » Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:43 am

Jacques, Cliff, Vic, anybody with credibility in our hobby,
I would be more than happy to give 15K to anyone who can deliver a proper 5-speed swing axle transmission that requires NO modifications to install in Speedy. How much could it cost to develop such a thing? No devious interest on my part, hope someone sells a million of 'em after Speedy gets his. I honestly think that if we could keep our stock/mild 356 motors in the proper power band, a lot of this chatter about needing bigger motors would go away. I'm coming from a long history of driving 356's fast on public roads around the world, and also spending a lot of $ and time getting ratios I could live with.
 

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Greg Bryan
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#8 Post by Greg Bryan » Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:37 am

Someone back in the day was making a 5 speed conversion for VW transmissions (Gene Berg?) He had prospects, tho, of selling a few thousand rather than a few ....
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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#9 Post by Jacques Lefriant » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:41 am

Hi Craig
I think what you want is easily achievable but not as a one-off of course.
Dean the developer of the Polo favors a trans-axle based on the 901. It would be done by having a case that was configured for 2 side covers this would be ideal since it could be used with different differentials and would be easier to run mid engine. Since the ring gear is a different dia than the 356/VW that would be also an issue. a new nose cone could be designed for the dual mount. 901 parts are inexpensive used but new they would be prohibited.
An alternate approach would be based on aftermarket VW transaxles like the Mendeola line. With sufficient volume the box could be built with new robust parts for under 10K.
j
 

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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#10 Post by C J Murray » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:48 am

I have thought about this for a long time but I do not have the engineering knowledge needed for a project like that. I do know a few things that make me wonder why it can't be done. The size of the gears in a modern motorcycle are quite small and bikes like the Suzuki Hyabusa are commonly modified well beyond 600 horsepower without transmission failures. We are talking racing here! It seems to me that a 6 speed gear cluster should fit in the available space in a 741 trans. With modern techniques, surely the old gears can be tossed for more narrow gears to get least get 5 speeds? Making the linkage may be the issue? If so, maybe a 6 speed sequential box would work? Beats me. I would have thought that some wacko in England would have worked this out in his garden shed by now! Maybe Mike Smith is holding out on us?
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Martin Benade
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#11 Post by Martin Benade » Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:31 am

Craig, keeping a mild engine in its powerband and being happy is a grownup (old?) pleasure that I would love, but very many people always want more power no matter how much they already have. I bet the chatter wouldn't lessen at all even if we had that option.

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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#12 Post by Craig Richter » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:42 am

Cliff, You've really got me drooling now (even more than my usual drool) with your out-of-the-box imagination A bolt-in sequential-shifting 6-speed using Suzuki gears for Speedy's 60th birthday! Who do I write the check to? Martin, I'll bet the horsepower guys would be all over this one too!
 

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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#13 Post by Jacques Lefriant » Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:30 pm

Hi Craig/Cliff
We are mostly concerned with Torque and shock loads. I think the community is not ready for a 20K box min qty 50 maybe a CVT or automatic would be the choice for the Sunday drivers. I have a good working relationship with the vendors/manufacturers in the offroad/kit car world and i know and have modified about every Porsche transmission prior to 1990. It would be feasible to bulid a replacement box. How many buyers are out there?????
j
 

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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#14 Post by gregorycampbell » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:26 pm

One more here (maybe two more)
Gregory Campbell
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Re: Outlaw Engine Choices

#15 Post by C J Murray » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:51 pm

What does a VW 5 speed aftermarket trans cost? How could the project be done utilizing existing salvage or aftermarket components? I would think that the price would need to be "low" to sell any volume. If it can be packaged in the stock case it would be a home run. Like Craig, most people won't chop up the car but a bolt in, even with a non stock case, 5 speed should sell. If you are faced with rebuilding a stock trans with a lot of damage the parts bill will knock your socks off. How about a 2 speed rear? Electric overdrive? I have to go take my medication now. :shock:
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Porsche Race Car - Finally Finished!
'63 GS 2133 coupe
'64 Elva Courier mk4T
'67 911 S Original Owner

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