The Official 356Talk Forum

I have decide to outlaw my 356c. I'am looking for advice on motor combinations, lowering without going to extreme measures. I have looked closely at Jake Rabys 2440 motors. Looking for feedback from the outlaw family as where to start!

Hi Mark,
I will try to help by bumping your post with a little controversy. I hope it helps.

911 engines are silly big heavy lumps that ruin the balance of a 356. Don't do that.

The 4 cylinder 911 engine may be lighter, probably not much because almost all the complexity is still there, has less power potential and is stupid expensive. Even Porsche thought the pushrod 4 was a better choice for the 912 than to simply cut 2 cylinders off of the 911.

VW engines are great...in a VW! Build a hot Bug or Ghia or VoPo 914 to house the Raby engine. Any of those would be a great car.

A 356 outlaw should be powered by a Porsche pushrod engine, unless you trailer it everywhere and then you could use a 4-cam which is heavy, complicated, fragile, and makes less power than a pushrod.

There, that should stir the pot a little.

Cliff

Cliff and I are not always on the same page, but on this subject we think alike. I love looking at hot-rods and well-done outlaws, but the proof is in the driving, and most of the home-builts are uncomfortable or loud or handle like crap, sometimes all the above. Why would anyone want to transform a perfectly good 356 into that?

Thanks for the input! So keeping my 356 motor in the car ,what is a good way to improve the HP and keep the reliability, at a sensible out of cost?

There are no ways to get a significant increase in hp at a sensible cost. The Raby 412 would come the closest, but even that costs as much or more than a 356 rebuild. The 4 cylinder 911 Polo motor is extremely expensive. Cliff and these guys like John Willhoit can eke out good hp increases from a 356 motor, but there is a cost that is exponentially proportional to hp.

But I just don't think the increased cost is worth it in terms of the driving enjoyment. Start with the suspension and renew everything. Get it all dialed in and then tell me the car is not fun to drive with a 60-90 hp motor. Or go the sports purposes route and add lightness.

Sterling has given excellent advice!!! First and foremost, IF you don't mind giving up some civility and comfort, make the car light! That will give you more pleasure than big horsepower. You can get a coupe down to Speedster weight or lower if you try. You will feel a BIG difference!

Sterling was also correct about the cost of power. "Speed costs money boy, how fast do you want to go?" I would think that you would love a stock 912/1720cc in a very light car. Do not put a big cam in any street engine. Make sure you get the maximum results in the rpm range where you will spend the most time. Who cares how fast it is at 7000rpm?

The next step up is the 1883 Nickies which make a big difference and actually make the engine run cooler than stock. There is absolutely no reason to do performance head work until you get to 1883 and even then it is optional. Again, stay away from big cams. A stock 912/1883 with 34mm venturis in a light car is a giant step forward.

When you go past the 1883 the money really starts to disappear and the returns diminish. A 2133 in street trim makes as much power as the best 1600 race engine but is expensive. The 1883 makes as much power as a Carrera 2 without the need for fancy cranks and rods and other expensive items.

Hi CJ
Not all Carrera2s some can get it on. If you want to twist your axles for a less money than a Polo try a Pauter VW.
j

Jacques, I only bash the Carreras because I am jealous. I doubt their owners care what childish and uninformed statements I make. consider the source.

i am fortunate/crazy enought to be able to build an outlaw C2. Back to the drawing board(i don't do CAD).
j

Okay Outlaw guys! Are we going to let the "No Mods Allowed Police" steam-roll Mark in his quest to have a little fun?

I run a 2054cc from a 914 in my 63 T6 coupe. It was built by Chico Performance Racing. It produces 138hp. I appreciate the heritage and value of my original 60hp engine so it is pickled and packed away awaiting re-installation sometime in the future.

The conversion was done without drilling a single hole or making a single cut in the original car. Everything is bolt-in. The engine may be a little heavier but I honestly don't notice it. The car likely does not have quite the finesse it had with the lighter engine but it is a blast to drive and I really enjoy driving it without worrying about abusing the engine.

For the record, I am very careful with the transmission which will be getting the Cadrobbi conversion soon.

Other than disc brakes on the front and the 914/a.k.a.VW engine, my 356 is stock. I know it will offend some but it is great fun for now without hurting the future value of the car in any way. What's not to like?

By the way, I am 73. Would you deny an old man some fun in his last good years? 8)

I say, let the old guys have fun!

I really appreciate all the input! It's great that everyone has their own thoughts on how to improve the car. I'am really moving toward using everyone's input. I do not want to cut the car. I like Johns approach with the engine and Sterlings idea on suspension up grades. I would. Like to smooth the body ( closing bumper openings) but that would require altering. That is not reversible . I know that several members have discussed this in past threads. It would be great if someone could come up with away to over come this issue.

Like many above, I like the idea of keeping a 356/912 motor in the car and using it as the basis for some performance mods. My car has a non #s matching 1600 in it, so I will eventually buy a 912 motor and build it up to put in the car or build up the 1600 that is already in it (I like the torque curve in it better than my ex-912 car). I really like the idea of twin-plugging it - you dont see many around (at least in the southeast) and I think there is an intangible coolness to it.

Either way you go, do what makes YOU happy - good luck

- Farrell

Just for information, in 2009, I paid Chico $6,000 for my 914 engine. This was for a completely rebuilt, turn-key, 914 engine, dyno tested. It is balanced to within 0.2 ounce inches. Also included in the price was a Kennedy Stage 1 pressure plate and a Raby DTM shroud. There was no "core charge" nor core supplied by me. So, I think it is possible to significantly increase performance without spending big bucks and doing it in a "356 preservation friendly" way.

I bought my 356 from the original owner in 1982. The restoration was completed in 1993 and remained so until the type 4 was installed in 2009. I hope to drive it regularly for 5 or 6 more years and the restore it again, possibly returning it to the stock configuration.

John Thanks! I will check out Chico's.