Fakes

[Jacques Lefriant]

Hi Barry
is this the proper Forum for this inconvient Topic.
I maybe a PIA but i suggested that part of the value of a Notchback may be its utility to be transformed into an Outlaw or an open car(and i believe you pulled it to prevent the topic from being trivilized i understand). This hapens we can't ignore it. I hate theives and frauds. I beleive that we have to be educated to the existence of non optimun behavior. Steve H research into the 4-Cam Spyder is partly to prevent frauds and maintain the value of the surviors. Do you beleive that so many matching no cars survied? but what is the harm of creating a beautiful example when a renumbering will make the project economically viable. My dearest friend Richard Miller once restored a pre A car. he was honest to a fault and when he showed the potential buyer the restoration history and the great pain he went to to restore the car the collector who was enamored with it lost interest. that car went to the Porsche Museum eventually. I think we should be relfective and realize the we are in this thing together and it is an inclusive rather than exclusive relationship. so long live the Outlaws, the 4-Cams, the Specials. support the vendors that suport us and KTF
jacques

[Barry Brisco]

Jacques, I am not sure exactly what question about "fakes" that you are posing in your post, but you are certainly welcome to post about that topic in the Outlaw Forum, or the Main Discussion Forum, or Authenticity: your choice (but the "no cross posting" rule prohibits making the same post in more than one Forum).

So...what is your question? I think I understand that you are concerned about "fakes", but after that I confess that you lost me...

Best regards,

[Vic Skirmants]

"So...what is your question? I think I understand that you are concerned about "fakes", but after that I confess that you lost me.."
UH...me too
Vic

[Roy Lock]

Vic and Barry
After having a few glasses of wine, I think Jacques is saying that there are alot of fakes out there in the 356 world. That Steve H (whoever "H" is) is out to save the world from 4 Cam Spyders (thanks in part to the generousity of Porsche AG and the 356 Registry who have supported him).

If so, I would like to stand tall and say that I own a fake err outlaw! Back in the day, I took a numbers matching, low mileage, one owner, original S90 coupe and chopped the top off of it. I welded a salvaged a sunroof top from a wrecked rusty car and made a sunroof coupe. It is now either an outlaw or fake. I'm not sure according to Jacques. Yet, I have loved that car from the get go.

So, when Jacques signs off with FCF. is he really meaning Fake Coupes Forever? If so, I will change my sign off to FCF! I couldn't be happier.

[Michael Doyle]

Roy,

The information given to begin with on this subject is confusing. But I think Jacques brought it up with good intentions.

After a glass of wine or two, I don't think it should cloud anyone's thinking that you simply later added a factory "sunroof option". But, if you also added aluminum doors and front/rear deck lids to your S90 and tried to sell it to some unsuspecting buyer as a "Real" S90 GT...then I would say there is a problem. That would be considered a "Fake".

As to Steve H, that is Steve Heinrichs. In your statement you claim to not know who that is, but at the same time make remarks about the person you don't know. That's confusing too...and best left alone.

Your S90 sounds like a nice car, and probably very nice to drive with the sunroof open...a very cool thing to have and enjoy.

Michael Doyle

[Roy Lock]

MD
Fully agree with you Patt(my better half, and comptroller) prefers the Sunroof over the Roadster.

For fear of waking up the authenticity police this early in the morning, by definition of "Outlaw" if we modify our cars in any manner, wouldn't that be an Outlaw? If we say, change the crank from factory to SCAT or one of Jacques and up'd the displacement to 1720, wouldn't that be Outlawed? Just a rhetorical question for discussion.

As our cars mature with time, the availability of NOS parts for use will diminish, this increasing the number of Outlaws on the road.

I personally do not see an issue with that. We are afterall keeping the cars on the road to enjoy.

The term Fakes a bit harsh. That is why I brought up my sunroof coupe as an example. To me, I have outlawed my 356. A very nice example done by Jim Rinker decades back.

[Michael Doyle]

MD
Fully agree with you Patt(my better half, and comptroller) prefers the Sunroof over the Roadster.

For fear of waking up the authenticity police this early in the morning, by definition of "Outlaw" if we modify our cars in any manner, wouldn't that be an Outlaw? If we say, change the crank from factory to SCAT or one of Jacques and up'd the displacement to 1720, wouldn't that be Outlawed? Just a rhetorical question for discussion.

As our cars mature in time, the availability of NOS parts for use will diminish, this increasing the number of Outlaws on the road.

I personally do not see an issue with that. We are afterglow keeping the cars on the road to enjoy.

The term Fakes a bit harsh. That is why I brought up my sunroof coupe as an example. To me, I have outlawed my 356. A very nice example done by Jim Rinker decades back.

Roy,

I believe Jacques has another thread on What is an Outlaw? But, it is in reality a name made up by Gary Emory a long time ago in the 1980's...on an early 356 coupe he highly modified by even another name calling it "Desperado". For fun he made up "the look" of a combination of Porsche Werkes racing ideas, parts, and pieces (including some vintage racing combinations)...to replicate an early Carrera GT-ish or Spyder-ish car. It's a just 4 fun made up American hot rod name...that's all. But since then, the name "Outlaw" stuck and is still around. Many have become quite valuable.

Back to the "Fakes"...I'll stick with what I wrote above, and your S90 coupe by example:

Quote: But, if you also added aluminum doors and front/rear deck lids to your S90 and tried to sell it to some unsuspecting buyer as a "Real" S90 GT...then I would say there is a problem. That would be considered a "Fake".

Michael (aka MD)

[Jacques Lefriant]

Hi Roy
Thank you for your input.
Yes there are good and bad Fakes your sunroof is a perfect example and as long as you don't contend the COA is in error it's great recyling of parts. Jim Rinker does not change the vin no of his Notchback to Cab Outlaws. Scat would not have made cranks if there was no demand by the Racers. Yes we should point out that matching no cars may have a little deception and as long as the sellers don't misrepresent intentionally things happen. When engine nos are changed or added they should have a code like KD to indicate something happened. A lot of time is spent researching (sorry Steve) to find the true history but does it really change things to know that the factory may have switched plates for a race. take the Speedster that sold for what it was perceived to be worth as an object of art not its componet value. Maybe we should name the Forum the Enjoyment Forum.

[Jacques Lefriant]

Hi MD
Desparado was a 1956 Coupe that i bought from the Aasse Bros it had been raced as a sports racer in Scca. The body had trailer fenders for flares. I installed a 901 trans and had a SPG roller crank pushrod engine for it. i put my 2ltr Carrera in it for a while then it got a big Type IV. it went to Gary who gave it the body mods and then it was fitted with a Polo engine. Gary is still waiting for me to devise a powerplant that will cox it out of retirement.
jacques

[Michael Doyle]

Hi MD
Desparado was a 1956 Coupe that i bought from the Aasse Bros it had been raced as a sports racer in Scca. The body had trailer fenders for flares. I installed a 901 trans and had a SPG roller crank pushrod engine for it. i put my 2ltr Carrera in it for a while then it got a big Type IV. it went to Gary who gave it the body mods and then it was fitted with a Polo engine. Gary is still waiting for me to devise a powerplant that will cox it out of retirement.
jacques

Hey Jacques....perhaps you should put that bit of "Outlaw" history in the records over on your "What is an Outlaw?" thread (or perhaps Barry will do that for you).

Cheers (to you and Barry),

Michael

[Bill Sargent]

I believe the key element of a "Fake" is the attempt to deceive for some form of profit - either money or something else that brings the holder of the fake emotional gain.

My "faux cam" project would fall into the fake category if I were to (foolishly) spend the money to purchase and install a 4 cam motor, alter the VIN number to that of a long lost 59A Carrera cab and then try to sell the car as such.

As it is I will simply have a unique car to enjoy driving that I have enjoyed building ..... an "Outlaw" perhaps?

[Dan Macdonald]

To me, this issue is simple.
Fakes are fiberglass...real 356's are just "modified" or "stock."
The only exception in my mind is the Jeffries car...that's "Kustom."

Back in 1973 when I bought my A coupe, nearly everyone "modified" their 356. Paint color, nerf bars, extractor exhaust, decambered, sway bars, wheels, tires, etc. etc. Good luck in finding a "stock" one back then.

I think there are more "stock" 356's now than ever.

[Michael Doyle]

I believe the key element of a "Fake" is the attempt to deceive for some form of profit - either money or something else that brings the holder of the fake emotional gain.

My "faux cam" project would fall into the fake category if I were to (foolishly) spend the money to purchase and install a 4 cam motor, alter the VIN number to that of a long lost 59A Carrera cab and then try to sell the car as such.

As it is I will simply have a unique car to enjoy driving that I have enjoyed building ..... an "Outlaw" perhaps?

Hi Bill,

On your 1600 356A Cabriolet, I believe you are going for a stock Carrera "look" with some GT option parts and a highly modified pushrod engine/oil system. Not really an "Outlaw", but perhaps more inclined to be a personalized "Special" tribute type car.

Very nice work you do...indeed.

Michael

[Jacques Lefriant]

Hi Dan
so 904s are fakes?
as long as they don't go to the carbon fibre look. i used to sell fibergalss A+B/C bumpers as an interim solution to the Nerf bars years ago. everyone please lets give the Outlaw Corner a new name so that all of the twisted minds can have a place to go.
FCF
jacques

[Emil Wojcik]

I would call Bill's car a Carrera Recreation before I'd call it an Outlaw since it's modeled after the factory cars.

As far as real Carreras go, they don't fit at all into the Outlaw category since they're factory-built cars. Of course, if you choose to modify an original Carrera to the extent that it's not even close to stock, it could be an Outlaw...but not if the car's basically stock.

I know the 356 community uses the term "outlaw" but by definition that's what the rest of the classic car world would call a hot rod. If you think of it those terms, it's easy to get a mental picture of what constitutes an outlaw.

And a fake is something that's represented by the owner as real.

I realize that my comments may fit better in one of the other recent threads discussing Outlaws and Carreras, but I think it fits here too.