C J Murray wrote:The concept that you will keep people from faking historical racers is ridiculous. There is way too much money involved and many of the players seem to get pleasure out of deceiving the less knowledgable buyers while they keep the true pedigree machines in their collections.
CJ,
I take it then (from your quote above)...that you condone this type of action and practice? Maybe you're just saying it goes on out there. Yeah...it certainly does.
I don't find it acceptable at all, and I don't think Porsche AG does as well. Unless somebody knows better than I do...I don't think the 356 Registry should either.
C J Murray wrote:The concept that you will keep people from faking historical racers is ridiculous. There is way too much money involved and many of the players seem to get pleasure out of deceiving the less knowledgable buyers while they keep the true pedigree machines in their collections.
CJ,
I take it then (from your quote above)...that you condone this type of action and practice? Maybe you're just saying it goes on out there. Yeah...it certainly does.
I don't find it acceptable at all, and I don't think Porsche AG does as well. Unless somebody knows better than I do...I don't think the 356 Registry should either.
Michael
Michael,
There is something wrong with your reading comprehension. My statement in no way implies your interpretation.
Let me make it simpler. Crooks are everywhere. Crooks are motivated by money. Big money can be made by faking historic race cars. It will never stop. You can't stop it. Nobody can stop it. You may shed light on a few fakes but many will remain in circulation.
I bet that most of the fakes that have been built were built by people that you think are very honorable enthusiasts. In order to do a great fake you must know every detail of the real machine. I think the counterfieters are scum but I live in realville and I know who does it, why, and that they will not stop.
If I were buying a bike or car with "history" then I would be very careful about substantiating the sellers assertions. I can't afford a bike that Hailwood, Surtees, or Agostini has won a race on so I have no worries. I buy the mongrels.
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Porsche Race Car
'63 Cabriolet "Norm"
'67 911 S Original Owner
'03 Ferrari 575M
'09 Smart Passion
Hi MD
Fortunately the cars we care about have high visability not like prewar cars or those Red cars. a lot happens in the normal course of things with race cars. they sometimes get mixed up with their stablemates. Shortcuts were common in the old days. my feeling is that if you can show a chain of custody in the vehicle you can lay claim to that history. A story that came up recently in restoring a Spyder the frame was deemed unrepairable and a new frame was constructed. the original frame without its serial no was discarded. someone was of the opinion that if he collected enought parts he would have the original car. we pointed out to him that he had the original frame but without title to the serial no the frame reverted to a bunch of tubes.
jacques
Last edited by Jacques Lefriant on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
C J Murray wrote:The concept that you will keep people from faking historical racers is ridiculous. There is way too much money involved and many of the players seem to get pleasure out of deceiving the less knowledgable buyers while they keep the true pedigree machines in their collections.
CJ,
I take it then (from your quote above)...that you condone this type of action and practice? Maybe you're just saying it goes on out there. Yeah...it certainly does.
I don't find it acceptable at all, and I don't think Porsche AG does as well. Unless somebody knows better than I do...I don't think the 356 Registry should either.
Michael
Michael,
There is something wrong with your reading comprehension. My statement in no way implies your interpretation.
Let me make it simpler. Crooks are everywhere. Crooks are motivated by money. Big money can be made by faking historic race cars. It will never stop. You can't stop it. Nobody can stop it. You may shed light on a few fakes but many will remain in circulation.
I bet that most of the fakes that have been built were built by people that you think are very honorable enthusiasts. In order to do a great fake you must know every detail of the real machine. I think the counterfieters are scum but I live in realville and I know who does it, why, and that they will not stop.
If I were buying a bike or car with "history" then I would be very careful about substantiating the sellers assertions. I can't afford a bike that Hailwood, Surtees, or Agostini has won a race on so I have no worries. I buy the mongrels.
C J Murray wrote:I have direct knowledge of the activities of some very prominent figures in the very high end historic motorcycle racing world. I know how a number of "famous" racing motorcycles were recreated. Those motorcycles were created by and marketed by people that are generally considered to be experts that are beyond reproach. The concept that you will keep people from faking historical racers is ridiculous. There is way too much money involved and many of the players seem to get pleasure out of deceiving the less knowledgable buyers while they keep the true pedigree machines in their collections. I believe that the cost of acquiring a truly historic machine is so high that some "expert collectors" find themselves financially over their heads and resort to faking machines as a means of supporting their habit. Steve H may catch a few fakes but many will remain in circulation. Futile.
C J Murray wrote:Michael,
There is something wrong with your reading comprehension. My statement in no way implies your interpretation.
Hi CJ,
My comprehension is just fine. Never better. I just don't think it should ever be considered "futile" as you suggest, to there being valid-documented information as reference to assist unsuspecting buyers of "Fakes". Comprende amigo?
But CJ...thanks for your insights and points for discussion on the subject, because that faking stuff you refer to is going on out there.
Didn't we even now bring about more attention to this...
Michael Doyle wrote:I take it then (from your quote above)...that you condone this type of action and practice?
Show me the phrase that I used that indicates that I condone theft by deception. The quote above your assertion does not say that unless maybe your first language is Spanish. Comprende amigo?
Don't you think you are a little loose with the accusations?
To further the substance of the subject a bit...Who exactly has the basic bits laying around to build the fakes? That would be the high profile guys that are thick into "the scene". It's not the low life crooks at the local chop shop. It's the gentlemanly crooks sipping wine at Pebble Beach. No, I am not saying that all Pebble Beach types are crooks but I am saying that you have to be running with the right crowd to have access and knowledge to pull off the crime.
Once you have put an end to the faking of historic cars then you can try to sort out the fake Masters paintings.
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Porsche Race Car
'63 Cabriolet "Norm"
'67 911 S Original Owner
'03 Ferrari 575M
'09 Smart Passion
Hi Guys
I hate crooks also but i don't like unsafe cars either. What is your take on the two Spyders the one with a new chassis and the one with the original chassis which one is the Fake are they both Fakes or both real??? please we do not need to judge but discuss this intelengently.
jacques
Michael Doyle wrote:I take it then (from your quote above)...that you condone this type of action and practice?
Show me the phrase that I used that indicates that I condone theft by deception. The quote above your assertion does not say that unless maybe your first language is Spanish. Comprende amigo?
Don't you think you are a little loose with the accusations?
To further the substance of the subject a bit...Who exactly has the basic bits laying around to build the fakes? That would be the high profile guys that are thick into "the scene". It's not the low life crooks at the local chop shop. It's the gentlemanly crooks sipping wine at Pebble Beach. No, I am not saying that all Pebble Beach types are crooks but I am saying that you have to be running with the right crowd to have access and knowledge to pull off the crime.
Once you have put an end to the faking of historic cars then you can try to sort out the fake Masters paintings.
CJ,
My statement asked you a question...see the "?" I think you have been offering very good explanations and commentary to this subject.
And the subject isn't you and I. It's about "Fakes" ...we are simply having a "Real" discussion. Fakes are a problem, and always will be. However, I think at the Porsche Archive/Museum the remaining "Real" Reutter records and Porsche's own "Real" historical documents will "sort out" the Fakes and more clearly indentify the "Genuine Originals".
These "Real" Porsche originals are somewhat like Masters paintings (your quote) but in their own right. But unlike paintings, they do have recorded build code numbers, and other recorded methods to help eliminate (or reduce) the forgeries and the myteries that are out there.
Hi MD and CJ
We are not talking fine art or vintage furniture. there are similarities but what would be the difference in value of the 350K speedster if Tim had used a hulk from Adam. a Ca driver or >90%replacement panels. It usually is the end result that is important. Take Carreras you can create a GS/GT very easly from a normal car but in finding the parts and the costs involved even if the utility is the same it is not considered a good idea. If the vin no is an important one with perceived history then we have issues. There must be a chain of ownership going back to the important history. After that what does it matter how much replacement is done? Why do we clean and restore fine works of art but restoring the finish on furniture is frowned on?
FCF
jacques
I think Jacques brings up alot of good questions. If a historic Spyder is found being used as a chicken coop in Mumbai and is "restored" by fabricating a new frame to replace the damaged rusted original and a new body to replace the damaged,corroded original and parts are gathered from all over the world is the resulting beautiful car a high end restoration, a recreation or a fake? Curious minds want to know your answer and why you feel that way.
When the high end exotic car restorer uses the left over parts from the silly and expensive "restoration" to make another car from the left over is known as a clone. As has been pointed out, this is not the practical for shade tree mechanics.
It is not clear if a clone is a fake, or is a new category of its own. using enough original "DNA" the clone is often more "original" than the restored original car.
For example, there are more Lola Mk1's now than before. Same as the 356 GS-GT breeding.
When you re-frame a car, you are supposed to cut the old one up and scrap it, after removing the identity numbers. This is leaving too much money on the ground for many "professionals"
Original is original and everything else, ain't. A chassis made by the modern chraftsman is not an original. Pannels beaten today are not original. Original is what the factory produced when they built the car. Every reproduction part used, no matter how well made, diminishes the originality of the car and eventually you end up with an engine and a number plate as the only original parts. The result is not a Porsche. The car with the fewest modern replacement parts is the best and most valuable car. The cars with a high content of modern parts is a replica.
If I were looking to buy a historic racer I would buy the one with lots of patina.
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Porsche Race Car
'63 Cabriolet "Norm"
'67 911 S Original Owner
'03 Ferrari 575M
'09 Smart Passion
Hi CJ
Originality is great for value but most of the cars we are talking about have had "work". The ownership(soul) is unique. transfered by legal documents and can only reside in one car at a time. Depending on the use i personaly leave it to the owner. he could have 100% Fake or !00% original or anything in between and it's his priviledge. Even if a car is a full on replica it still is the Porsche that it claims to be. When Audi had the Auto Unions remade they were done by non Audi firms. There are many instances of cars restored more "original" than present Porsche would do.
Now everybody can burn me at the stake.
jacques
As has been said before, it is only original once. In my opinion, blatant over restoration ruins cars. While bolting on period speed parts, or replacing age cracked tires does not.
I would agree with C J that a "new" car made from new parts even if it carries a correct identity is just as "fake" as a newly minted example made from plans.
Hi Erik
It may be Fake but it has more utility and it is for legal purposes the identity. If these cars are to endure and be used we have to resort to Fakery. The investment in creating replacment parts would be astronomical if only original cars existed and there was no need for replacements. Sure an original unrestored car would be worth more but i doubt if you would vintage race it or use it for a daily driver even with new tires.
jacques
jacques
We all agree that there are cases where heavy restoration, recreation, and modification all have their uses, and that these cars are indeed valuable. Whatever someone wants to pay for them is fine by me. I do it myself, there are cases when all you have to work with is a few fragments of old junk.
But I would say there is no such thing as "original restoration"
Furthermore, is is fraud and fakery to do "recreations" or "clones" with the intention of sale.
