Fakes

For those who couldn't care less how their 356 left the factory!
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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Fakes

#46 Post by Jacques Lefriant »

Hi Erik
at what point is it fraud if you have legal title to a car and create a car for sale using minimal original parts. i beleive this is different than inventing a car.
jacques
Erik Thomas wrote: Furthermore, is is fraud and fakery to do "recreations" or "clones" with the intention of sale.
 

Erik Thomas
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Re: Fakes

#47 Post by Erik Thomas »

Jacques:

Say I have an identity tag from a 1955 Porsche Speedster in a box. I paid a dollar for it from a junkyard in the 1970's

This does not grant me the authority to cut a coupe into a Speedster, and pass it off as a Speedster. Even though we both know that this is possible. it is wrong. While I may be able to get away with it, it does not change the fact that it is wrong. Does not matter if the "restoration" is so good, that no one can ever tell.

Say a guy finds the same old Speedster with no identity tag. He spends 5 years putting it right, patches it up. He has a real Speedster. Even if he has to stamp his own number plate, or figure out how to document it.

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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Fakes

#48 Post by Jacques Lefriant »

Hi Erik
I don't have any legal or moral problem with that Speedster if done in a workmanlike manner. If it walks like a duck....... to me it is a legal Speedster and if no misrepresentation is made what you see is what you gets. it just something i would not do. the other "real" speedster has the same utility but DMV may license it as a kit car.
jacques
 

Rainer Cooney
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Re: Fakes

#49 Post by Rainer Cooney »

Some of the most prominent and valuable Porsche race cars, 550-001, in some of the largest and best funded museums in the world, Porsche, Collier, are complete "re-bodies" of an "original" car. In some cases you have to work with what you have been given. A lot of these original early race cars did not have the build quality of the production cars and in the course of restoration the challenge is to not do too good of a job, hammer marks, sloppy welds etc.

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Michael Doyle
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Re: Fakes

#50 Post by Michael Doyle »

Rainer Cooney wrote:Some of the most prominent and valuable Porsche race cars, 550-001, in some of the largest and best funded museums in the world, Porsche, Collier, are complete "re-bodies" of an "original" car. In some cases you have to work with what you have been given. A lot of these original early race cars did not have the build quality of the production cars and in the course of restoration the challenge is to not do too good of a job, hammer marks, sloppy welds etc.

Rainer,

I believe the very special car(s) and owners you mention, though, also did have undisputed documentation as to their origin and chain of history.

Many, as in most production cars, don't have documentation to back them up....and that's where the fraud and fakery can surface. Perhaps this is what Erik is referring to. I know it fits into my perspective.

Michael

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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Fakes

#51 Post by Jacques Lefriant »

MD
There seems to an awareness of the problem. the better auction houses and dealers will refuse to offer or disclaim the provenance of questionable cars. In Ca any car with defaced or missing VINs is subject to seizure by the authorities. Caveat emptor as they say
jacques
 

Bill Block
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Re: Fakes

#52 Post by Bill Block »

In the mid 90s the Barb & Vic Skirmants asked me if I would reanimate the 356 serial number registry (remember the club is called the 356 Registry). Little did I know this involved entering by hand thousands of applications and renewals that had been put in multiple Xerox copy paper boxes). Someone started referring to me as the registrar -- so I now am and have probably entered more than 80% of the entries. Lo, I found that senior trusties -- all of whom are involved in buying and selling 356s -- were to object to this practice. Why? Well it identifies a person as an owner of a 356. I pointed out (and here I am staggering toward the point) that anyone who looks at the open web site an infer that a participant has a 356 (on about the 90% level) and 356TALK identifies the participant as to town; whereas the Registry is only to state or county. Most importantly the web site establishes provenance -- whereby the ownership and condition of a 356 may be traced. One more knowledgeable of inner workings of the trusties, and definitely more paranoid than I, says this lead to my book reviews of 30 years on 356 Porsches being ignored in favor of non 356 material.
bill block 356 Registry registrar

Anand Sher

Re: Fakes

#53 Post by Anand Sher »

Erik Thomas wrote:Jacques:

Say I have an identity tag from a 1955 Porsche Speedster in a box. I paid a dollar for it from a junkyard in the 1970's
...
Say a guy finds the same old Speedster with no identity tag. He spends 5 years putting it right, patches it up. He has a real Speedster. Even if he has to stamp his own number plate, or figure out how to document it.
You're getting better value for your dollar then the restored speedster with no numbers.

Brad K

Re: Fakes

#54 Post by Brad K »

George Bryan wrote: . . .There was another SoCal guy who pioneered a lot of this type stuff on 356's too back when, maybe you can help me...the black speedster he called speedster plus...with the 911 stuff, late 80's. Dang, I can see the old Registry article but the name escapes me. I want to say Larry Chumura. Is that car still around? . . .

Regards,
George
Hey george - you are referring to Larry Chmura, who is a spokane raceway regular out in eastern wa/idaho area - Larry has instructed me at that track in his speedster . . . with a 2.8 RSR engine and a hardtop!!! that was the fastest 356 i've ever been in - Larry is a very neat guy who started customizing 356's and 911's maybe slightly before emory - his creations are very interesting (i've also been in his "targster," a chopped early 911 targa, which resembles a speedster), and he's the only guy i've ever seen at the track who brings an easel and paints landscapes between sessions! i really think Excellence or another Porsche magazine should do a story on Larry and his Porsche creations! Maybe someone else out there knows about Larry Chmura, and can ad some info

brad k in seattle

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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Fakes

#55 Post by Jacques Lefriant »

Hi Bill Block
Thank you for what you do and thank the moderators/trustees and everyone who gives even if there is a semblance of ulterior motive. When is your how to engine book coming out and who is going to review it?
cheers
jacques
 

Anand Sher

Re: Fakes

#56 Post by Anand Sher »

C J Murray wrote: Original is original and everything else, ain't. A chassis made by the modern chraftsman is not an original. Pannels beaten today are not original. Original is what the factory produced when they built the car. Every reproduction part used, no matter how well made, diminishes the originality of the car and eventually you end up with an engine and a number plate as the only original parts. The result is not a Porsche. The car with the fewest modern replacement parts is the best and most valuable car. The cars with a high content of modern parts is a replica.
CJ, you are Mr. Obvious aren't you?

And you're 100% wrong about the 'fewest modern replacement parts is the best and most valuable car.' Restored cars easily fetch more than original rusty heaps of junk.

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C J Murray
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Re: Fakes

#57 Post by C J Murray »

Anand,
I am not sure how I can be "Mr. Obvious" and "100% wrong" at the same time.
Anand Sher wrote:Restored cars easily fetch more than original rusty heaps of junk.
That sounds right. Did I say otherwise? No. I said that a good condition historical race car, with a very high percentage of its' original factory parts and with lots of patina is more valuable than a car with a re-popped chassis and body. The phony chassis and body did not win the '56 Nurburgring or the '60 Sebring or whatever epic races were a part if its' legacy. The car with the phony body and chassis is as important as a Beck in my eyes. Anybody with money can commission a new 550 Spyder but only a couple of people on earth can own an original unrestored 550. Let the wannabes spend their new found millions from the sale of their .com to create the cars with no history and no soul. Dr. Frankenstein will gather just a few of the original pieces from the graveyards, surround them with fakery, and then call it "alive". Pity the man who praises false gods.

Was that over the top enough?

My metal man has done quite a bit of work for Dr. Simeone on his fabulous collection. When the LeMans winning C-Type Jaguar was being restored he asked that the car remain a Jaguar and not be converted to a Tidmarsh, the name of the metal man. Almost none of the body metal was replaced. The same approach was used to fluff up the Shelby Daytona Coupe that he owns. He wanted the car to REMAIN the car that won so many epic races. If he wanted new he could have bought a Superformance for less than the $6 million that he paid for the well worn historic icon.

Here is the link to the Simeone Museum. Most of his cars are not "restored" and that does show in some of the pictures. http://simeonemuseum.org/
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Porsche Race Car
'63 Cabriolet "Norm"
'67 911 S Original Owner
'03 Ferrari 575M
'09 Smart Passion

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Michael Doyle
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Re: Fakes

#58 Post by Michael Doyle »

C J Murray wrote:Anand,
I am not sure how I can be "Mr. Obvious" and "100% wrong" at the same time.
C J Murray wrote:The phony chassis and body did not win the '56 Nurburgring or the '60 Sebring or whatever epic races were a part if its' legacy. The car with the phony body and chassis is as important as a Beck in my eyes. Anybody with money can commission a new 550 Spyder but only a couple of people on earth can own an original unrestored 550. Let the wannabes spend their new found millions from the sale of their .com to create the cars with no history and no soul. Dr. Frankenstein will gather just a few of the original pieces from the graveyards, surround them with fakery, and then call it "alive". Pity the man who praises false gods.

Was that over the top enough?
CJ....music to my ears. Through the magic of the written word, you've come alive!

Over the top enough? ...No, not at all, but you're about there. Keep it go'in!

best/Michael

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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Fakes

#59 Post by Jacques Lefriant »

Hi All
There seems to be a lot of interest in this topic 3400+ views. it goes to show that the Outlaw Forum gets visited but is it just curiosity. We have tried to make this topic entertaining but there is a serious dark side to this topic. A great deal is made to find the missing engine that the COA specifies (it makes a good story and an adventure but reunitung is not the same as continuity). the demand for virgin timing covers seem to be more than looking for a good oil pump housing. we all want to have the correct car but do we really want to know or care if it has been created by well meaning individuals who have done it out of propriety or just plain crooks. In 20 years will anyone care or will there be the detetives that can ferret out the Fakes. Perhaps we place to much value on correctness and should be more concerned with the utility and the beauty if we are to continue in our passion.
jacques
 

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Michael Doyle
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Re: Fakes

#60 Post by Michael Doyle »

Jacques Lefriant wrote:In 20 years will anyone care or will there be the detetives that can ferret out the Fakes. Perhaps we place to much value on correctness and should be more concerned with the utility and the beauty if we are to continue in our passion.
jacques
Hello Jacques,

I believe 20 years ago, in the 1990's, people asked the same question back then. Here we are now, those 20 years later in 2012, and yes, people do seem to care more than ever before to "ferret out the Fakes".

There's a very wide range to cars being legitimate, or not. From a $25,000 driver quality car (of any make) to the extreme upper collectible end. On this high end, not to long ago I recall the auction house, Christie's, highly marketing an Auto Union D type. It was represented as having particular race history...but just hours before rolling the D type onto the auction stage, Christie's pulled it from the sale. Additional new information came in to them that it wasn't the chassis number it was supposed to be. Here's the story link:

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/02/28/upda ... om-auctio/

Also, I believe insurance company's and collector car appraisals these days are very much wanting, even requiring, that there be valid documentation on particular cars with owners wanting "agreed values" placed on them.

So, to me anyway, there's much more to it than "utility and beauty"...sometimes that's only skin deep.

Michael

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