Fakes

For those who couldn't care less how their 356 left the factory!
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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Fakes

#16 Post by Jacques Lefriant »

Hi Emil
I would give more credit to the Outlaw creators. the term Hot Rod to me means a good looking car with increased performance. The better Outlaws are improvements on an already refined creation. there are a lot of nuances that go into the better Outlaws it not like buying a big bump stick a Quadrajet carb dual exhaust and glaspacks pinstriping and flames and a tucked interior.
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George Bryan
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Re: Fakes

#17 Post by George Bryan »

HI Jacques, I think that is a very good delineation you made between the two. When you look at Minter's work back in the 80's and Gary's creations, Dink Farmer and others... its more refined in my opinion also than a slick flame paint job with chrome valve covers and fuzzy dice. There was another SoCal guy who pioneered a lot of this type stuff on 356's too back when, maybe you can help me...the black speedster he called speedster plus...with the 911 stuff, late 80's. Dang, I can see the old Registry article but the name escapes me. I want to say Larry Chumura. Is that car still around?

But come on Jacques...for a true motor head....you just can't beat the sound and straight line speed, and smoking tires, of a dual pipe, big bump stick 'merican V8. :D I was so remorseful I sold my 61 bubble top Impala with a big bump stick, tri-power 348 with a 4:11 chunk and a wiggly stick 4 speed and a column mounted Sun...I just picked up a 68 Chevelle. :shock:

What did Tom Cruise say in Top Gun...sometimes "I feel the need...the need for speed".

Regards,
George

Roy Lock
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Re: Fakes

#18 Post by Roy Lock »

George the spirit of outlawing/hot ridding still abounds here in SoCal. Every weekend at Cars & Coffe, we see some really neat custom cars. Some are Porsches. Recently, I saw a Chevy 350 powered 911.
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Dan Macdonald
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Re: Fakes

#19 Post by Dan Macdonald »

Jacques Lefriant wrote:Hi Dan
so 904s are fakes?
as long as they don't go to the carbon fibre look. i used to sell fibergalss A+B/C bumpers as an interim solution to the Nerf bars years ago. everyone please lets give the Outlaw Corner a new name so that all of the twisted minds can have a place to go.
FCF
jacques
Bonjour Jacques,
Of course 904's aren't fakes, but I thought we were discussing 356's(?)
The 906. 908, 910, 917 etc. aren't fakes either, just to be clear. :D
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Michael Doyle
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Re: Fakes

#20 Post by Michael Doyle »

This one word title "Fakes" to me is essentially the literal "forgery" of 4-cam cars and other GS and GT types, including specific and desirable pushrod models that private parties and dealers deliberately put out on the market and into auctions...selling these cars as "Real" to unsuspecting deep-pocket buyers.

GT models produced from the factory were made that way in certain recorded numbers. GS models were built their own specific way and number too. But through the passage of time...how can there be more so-called GT's today than was originally made? ...hmmm.

Also, on the discussion of "fiberglass", that may include replica 356 Speedsters and belongs on a different subject thread (maybe a different web-site?). But there have been known to be fakes on some of the "real" Porsche fiberglass bodied cars like the 904, 906, 917 etc. Switched around numbers for underhanded, deliberate purposes on chassis and frames I would consider illegal.

There are real "Tribute" cars made much after the original ones. If Buyers are given full disclosure from the Seller...then the Buyer knows (and pays for) exactly what they are getting. Perhaps this is more on the point of Fakes..?

Michael

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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Fakes

#21 Post by Jacques Lefriant »

Hi MD
At RRIV the car i liked best was 718-007 it looked real. I would not call the others Fakes but they looked to good, even thought a car may have the proper provenance they are usually over restored. i am glad that the special cars go to the deep pockets so they will be preserved but what's the fun in that. i am just happy that i can be a heritic and build a 4-Cam outlaw from a real one.
FCF
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C J Murray
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Re: Fakes

#22 Post by C J Murray »

I have direct knowledge of the activities of some very prominent figures in the very high end historic motorcycle racing world. I know how a number of "famous" racing motorcycles were recreated. Those motorcycles were created by and marketed by people that are generally considered to be experts that are beyond reproach. The concept that you will keep people from faking historical racers is ridiculous. There is way too much money involved and many of the players seem to get pleasure out of deceiving the less knowledgable buyers while they keep the true pedigree machines in their collections. I believe that the cost of acquiring a truly historic machine is so high that some "expert collectors" find themselves financially over their heads and resort to faking machines as a means of supporting their habit. Steve H may catch a few fakes but many will remain in circulation. Futile.
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C J Murray
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Re: Fakes

#23 Post by C J Murray »

Another thought...

I visited the Collier museum last year. It was a wonderful experience. Thank you Vic for helping to get the tour. Thanks to Vince also. What we were told was that the cars are now going through a process of UN-restoration. Yes, they are taking beautifully straight and shiny Spyders etc. and making them lumpy and dull. Over-restoration is out, au natural is in!

This reminds me of what happened with early American furniture many decades ago but I don't think it's easy to make the furniture "old" again so the unrestored originals are now extremely rare and ultra valuable.

Fashion changes but original is original and cannot be recreated. They're only original once.
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Barry Brisco
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Re: Fakes

#24 Post by Barry Brisco »

C J Murray wrote:What we were told was that the cars are now going through a process of UN-restoration. Yes, they are taking beautifully straight and shiny Spyders etc. and making them lumpy and dull. Over-restoration is out, au natural is in!... Fashion changes but original is original and cannot be recreated. They're only original once.
Hi Cliff, thanks for your post, I think you're on to something there! Chuck House has some very fine mostly unrestored 356s; to me they are more interesting in their aged state than they would be fully restored and "like new".

In the Main Discussion Forum there is a topic "original vs new paint" where Richard Lutz is asking for advice on whether or not to re-paint his original paint car.

And what about the 58 Speedster that recently sold for $335K that had a $80K paint job? Beautiful car, but it seems likely that it is now more "perfect" than when it first came off the Porsche assembly line.

So we have a wide spectrum of approaches: the factory taking over-restored cars and "unrestoring" them; some owners are deliberately keeping their cars unrestored; and others restoring them to perhaps better than new condition.

And then there are those middle-of-the-roaders like me, who acquired a car that was partially restored, and is slowly replacing/restoring bits and pieces over time, while leaving other parts alone. I see no reason to ever re-paint the dash, which is original paint, or replace the inner door panel and rear seat upholstery even though it doesn't match the newish front seats.
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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Fakes

#25 Post by Jacques Lefriant »

Hi CJ
I am glad this topic is finally getting around to the what i had envisioned. if i have offended in trying to create interest i am sorry. 007 is a Collier car. before they aquired it i was involved in the mechanicals. Rather than redo what had been done they transplated the drivetrain to another center seater RSK since 007 was a Works car. (btw there was no cheating but some of the parts had never been to the Father Land)
FCF
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Michael Doyle
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Re: Fakes

#26 Post by Michael Doyle »

C J Murray wrote:Fashion changes but original is original and cannot be recreated. They're only original once.
I would say that statement above from CJ goes for the Chassis #'s too. Although I think (maybe) there have been some instances, in history, of internal changes by Porsche...which would be Ok, as they are the manufacturer.

Anything outside of Porsche doing it is not original. If tampered with, in my opinion, it becomes "Fake" for what car it may be represented as.

Michael
Last edited by Michael Doyle on Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dan Macdonald
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Re: Fakes

#27 Post by Dan Macdonald »

C J Murray wrote:Another thought...

I visited the Collier museum last year. It was a wonderful experience. Thank you Vic for helping to get the tour. Thanks to Vince also. What we were told was that the cars are now going through a process of UN-restoration. Yes, they are taking beautifully straight and shiny Spyders etc. and making them lumpy and dull. Over-restoration is out, au natural is in!

Fashion changes but original is original and cannot be recreated. They're only original once.
I've been told that this 550 owned by Vijay Mallya is the only unrestored 550 in the world. Maybe someone knows differently(?) Anyway, it got a lot of attention at last year's Porsche Race Car Classic. As CJ mentioned, the're only original once.
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Barry Brisco
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Re: Fakes

#28 Post by Barry Brisco »

Dan, I'm glad you brought up that car. To me, that 550 and Chuck's 356A Carrera were the two most interesting cars at the Porsche Race Car Classic because they were unrestored and very original. I had never seen an original 550 top (and probably never will again)! Here are some photos I took of that car. It was amazing: very clean, but every part looked aged and worn. I loved the dents in the nose of the car! I hope it is never restored.

Barry
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janos szarvadi
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Re: Fakes

#29 Post by janos szarvadi »

Jacques Lefriant wrote:Hi Dan
so 904s are fakes?
as long as they don't go to the carbon fibre look. i used to sell fibergalss A+B/C bumpers as an interim solution to the Nerf bars years ago. everyone please lets give the Outlaw Corner a new name so that all of the twisted minds can have a place to go.
FCF
jacques

Birth of original 904 twins (no fakes here) in 1964 at the Heinkel factory.

Enjoy,
Janos
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Joris Koning
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Re: Fakes

#30 Post by Joris Koning »

Thanks for sharing Janos, that's a great picture
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