Engine advice
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- 356 Fan
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- Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:01 am
Engine advice
I am about to embark on my first outlaw build, using a '65 C as the donor vehicle.
With touring as a primary use, reliability is very important; however, occassional track capability will be desirable.
A friend has suggested the following, and I would appreciate feedback relative to a good combination of power / cost / reliability, assuming a 901 5 speed. Thank you.
"As you might expect, the probability of failure increases as the engines depart from the design point. For example, a 1 mm overbore on a 356 can certainly be tolerated, but building a “big” (e.g., 1800cc) engine on a 356 case has an adverse affect on reliability, in my opinion. One could do so, of course, provided the engine was not held at redline. So, an 1800cc 356 would be great for car event or cocktail discussions, but it’s unclear how reliable the bottom end would be, considering that the original design of the 356 (based on early VW) two-piece engine was 1100 cc. The 3-piece engines started at 1500cc. There are people building 356 engines at 1800 and larger. I have seen the hp charts, but I haven’t seen the expense-to-operate charts or the reliability charts.
FOUR CYLINDERS
1600 cc 912 – 74 stroke, 82.5 bore: could equip with carbs, dual plug, crankfire ignition (no distributor) or single distributor (single plug per cylinder) or twin distributors (twin plugs per cylinder)
Big bore version of the above.
“Carrera” version of above – a replica 4-cam shroud is mated to the 356 pushrod case.
Fuel-injected version of above
1800 cc version of the above. Big & strong, but perhaps unreliable, as it’s really stressing the design.
2.0-2.2+ Type 4 (VW/914 sourced) – these are robust engines, first used in VW transporters and in the 914-4 (1.7, 1.8, 2.0) and 912-E (2.0). I’ve had friends build these as big as 2.5. This is one of the best price performers.
:?: “Carrera” version of above – shroud, etc. pretty cool looking when it’s twin-plug.
Fuel-injected version of the above
A combination that I’ve never seen is to mate the 356 shroud & (912 12V) generator to the Type 4 engine (Type 4 ordinarily drives the fan directly off the crank, not off a fan belt driven by a pulley). If it’s possible, then it would look like a 356 but be much more powerful. Maybe there’s a technical reason why I’ve never seen this combination!
The Polopolus engine. Basically, a cast block resembling the 4 corner cylinders of a 911. Good power and attractive, but expensive.
SIX CYLINDERS (911)
2.0, 2.2, 2.4, 2.5, 2.7, 2.9, 3.0 all possible. The 2.0/2.2 engine is the lightest. The bigger, the heavier, as a rule.
A heavy engine would present weight distribution problems, but has been done
Carbs or MFI or electronic fuel injection.
With touring as a primary use, reliability is very important; however, occassional track capability will be desirable.
A friend has suggested the following, and I would appreciate feedback relative to a good combination of power / cost / reliability, assuming a 901 5 speed. Thank you.
"As you might expect, the probability of failure increases as the engines depart from the design point. For example, a 1 mm overbore on a 356 can certainly be tolerated, but building a “big” (e.g., 1800cc) engine on a 356 case has an adverse affect on reliability, in my opinion. One could do so, of course, provided the engine was not held at redline. So, an 1800cc 356 would be great for car event or cocktail discussions, but it’s unclear how reliable the bottom end would be, considering that the original design of the 356 (based on early VW) two-piece engine was 1100 cc. The 3-piece engines started at 1500cc. There are people building 356 engines at 1800 and larger. I have seen the hp charts, but I haven’t seen the expense-to-operate charts or the reliability charts.
FOUR CYLINDERS
1600 cc 912 – 74 stroke, 82.5 bore: could equip with carbs, dual plug, crankfire ignition (no distributor) or single distributor (single plug per cylinder) or twin distributors (twin plugs per cylinder)
Big bore version of the above.
“Carrera” version of above – a replica 4-cam shroud is mated to the 356 pushrod case.
Fuel-injected version of above
1800 cc version of the above. Big & strong, but perhaps unreliable, as it’s really stressing the design.
2.0-2.2+ Type 4 (VW/914 sourced) – these are robust engines, first used in VW transporters and in the 914-4 (1.7, 1.8, 2.0) and 912-E (2.0). I’ve had friends build these as big as 2.5. This is one of the best price performers.
:?: “Carrera” version of above – shroud, etc. pretty cool looking when it’s twin-plug.
Fuel-injected version of the above
A combination that I’ve never seen is to mate the 356 shroud & (912 12V) generator to the Type 4 engine (Type 4 ordinarily drives the fan directly off the crank, not off a fan belt driven by a pulley). If it’s possible, then it would look like a 356 but be much more powerful. Maybe there’s a technical reason why I’ve never seen this combination!
The Polopolus engine. Basically, a cast block resembling the 4 corner cylinders of a 911. Good power and attractive, but expensive.
SIX CYLINDERS (911)
2.0, 2.2, 2.4, 2.5, 2.7, 2.9, 3.0 all possible. The 2.0/2.2 engine is the lightest. The bigger, the heavier, as a rule.
A heavy engine would present weight distribution problems, but has been done
Carbs or MFI or electronic fuel injection.
- Jacques Lefriant
- 356 Fan
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Re: Engine advice
Hi James
if you have the 911 trans and IRS rear suspension none of the choices you put forward are a problem. at some point you will have to increase the oil cooling to take advantage of the higher power. I see no reason to go above 150hp for normal usage. It is easier to copy the proven efforts than to pioneer a new configuration.
jacques
if you have the 911 trans and IRS rear suspension none of the choices you put forward are a problem. at some point you will have to increase the oil cooling to take advantage of the higher power. I see no reason to go above 150hp for normal usage. It is easier to copy the proven efforts than to pioneer a new configuration.
jacques
- C J Murray
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Re: Engine advice
Try a 2133cc 356 stroker with 150 low rev hp and big torque with a taller ring and pinion to eliminate the need for the 5 speed. Better torque than a 911 swap and much better handling. That's what I'm doing.
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- Tom Tate
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Re: Engine advice
CJ, is that the engine that you had at Sebring in Mar when you outran Rob and I? No wonder you were fast. KTF
- C J Murray
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Re: Engine advice
No comment.
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Porsche Race Car
'63 Cabriolet "Norm"
'67 911 S Original Owner
'03 Ferrari 575M
'09 Smart Passion
'59 Sunroof
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- George Bryan
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Re: Engine advice
CJ is that the same engine with the special rocker arms? I've heard about it.
Regards,
George
Regards,
George
- C J Murray
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Re: Engine advice
It's so special that it blew up! 188hp is too much!
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Porsche Race Car
'63 Cabriolet "Norm"
'67 911 S Original Owner
'03 Ferrari 575M
'09 Smart Passion
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Porsche Race Car
'63 Cabriolet "Norm"
'67 911 S Original Owner
'03 Ferrari 575M
'09 Smart Passion
- Jacques Lefriant
- 356 Fan
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- Location: Washoe county NV
Re: Engine advice
Hi CJ
Too Much for what???? how much torque? and is that on a chassis Dyno? Wilhoit is getting simlilar numbers on real Dynos.
jacques
Too Much for what???? how much torque? and is that on a chassis Dyno? Wilhoit is getting simlilar numbers on real Dynos.
jacques
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- 356 Fan
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Re: Engine advice
Recall my request for reliability lads !
- C J Murray
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Re: Engine advice
188 on a chassis dyno would be even more unbelievable from 1622cc.
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Porsche Race Car
'63 Cabriolet "Norm"
'67 911 S Original Owner
'03 Ferrari 575M
'09 Smart Passion
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Porsche Race Car
'63 Cabriolet "Norm"
'67 911 S Original Owner
'03 Ferrari 575M
'09 Smart Passion
- C J Murray
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Re: Engine advice
James-The 2133cc street stroker will be very reliable and relaxed. It is not a high rev engine. You would rarely go to 6000rpm because of the torque being so great at lower revs. This is the key to building a fast street car that can be lived with for many years. CliffJames Riordan wrote:Recall my request for reliability lads !
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Porsche Race Car
'63 Cabriolet "Norm"
'67 911 S Original Owner
'03 Ferrari 575M
'09 Smart Passion
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'63 Cabriolet "Norm"
'67 911 S Original Owner
'03 Ferrari 575M
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- Glenn Ring
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Re: Engine advice
Just a suggestion (don't shoot me), have you thought about a Type 4 engine? You can get a easy 200hp and be as reliable as stock.James Riordan wrote:With touring as a primary use, reliability is very important; however, occasional track capability will be desirable.
This one, in a Beetle, has 220hp and AC.
Glenn Ring
Restored Bosch Distributors
Restored Bosch Distributors
- C J Murray
- 356 Fan
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Re: Engine advice
Hi Jacques-John is a friend and does build superb street engines. He will build a race engine occasionally but that is not really his thing. All the big horsepower engines that he builds are big displacement street engines in the 1925, 2002, and 2132 sizes. His results are nicely chronicled in two articles on his website. The one race engine that he discusses in the article would not be legal with any US race organization.Jacques Lefriant wrote:Hi CJ
Too Much for what???? how much torque? and is that on a chassis Dyno? Wilhoit is getting similar numbers on real Dynos.
jacques
The general number quoted for a very good 1622cc race engine is 165hp. I don't recall any torque numbers being quoted. IF 188hp were attainable, then 161 torque would be likely.
Cliff
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- Vic Skirmants
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Re: Engine advice
Torque around 135 at 5800, if memory is correct.