Distributors

For those who couldn't care less how their 356 left the factory!
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Glenn Ring
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Re: Distributors

#16 Post by Glenn Ring »

Mike Wilson wrote:I also talked with another gentleman who rebuilds distributors and he said that he no longer uses them for the same reasons.

Mike Wilson
Lomita, CA
'63 B coupe
Was that me? Because I not only found a number of the magnets not being exactly 90º I also found the hole in the mounting plate for the brass points pin was too small. After talking to Pertronix tech support and supplying them with pictures with my caliper they did confirm that their current stock was too small. Their response was for me to continue to enlarge the hole myself and they would correct it in the next production run.

Basically i was told.. live with it and i decided to stop installing them instead.

I can tell you that I used a Gene Berg CDI system on my 12v VW for a number of years and it worked like the Tiger in that it used the points as a trigger. I gapped the points at .010" and didn't replaced them for 30,000 miles. Since there's no voltage passing through them they will not pit. I just made sure the cam was greased and i bet they would of lasted longer.

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Glenn Ring

Restored Bosch Distributors

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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Distributors

#17 Post by Jacques Lefriant »

Hi All
Pertronx units have their utility. I recall Ab being frustrated by not having a way to redo the camlobes that open the points. Crank fire units are wonderful but are not too cost effective. Erick Shaion and i worked with Permatune to develop a system that had better than .01 Deg resolution probably my most overkill project. I'll go back to my more applicable projects.
jacques
Last edited by Jacques Lefriant on Thu May 12, 2011 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 

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Frederic Prince
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Re: Distributors

#18 Post by Frederic Prince »

Dave Wildrick wrote:
Glenn Ring wrote:A good friend has a 6v CDI that's made by or called "Tiger" and uses the points as a trigger. So it will work with any distributor.
Similar to what Glenn described, the 6V Pazon unit from New Zealand has been advocated by other listers and will work with any distributor:

Pazon electronic ignition module—preserves points. $113 NZ or about $85 US

http://www.pazon.com/ignition-system/en ... earth.html

I have toyed with the idea of trying it, but I am saving up for the 123 distributor from the Netherlands (the 6V version, about $400), which a good friend of mine has been using successfully in his 65C (6V) coupe for 2 years:

http://www.123ignitionusa.com/porschevw.html
Hi,
i've put an 123 distributor on my car and found that the timing point at idle was not correct, moving from + or - 5-8°.

So i removed it and put back the 031 I've had checked

fred ;)©
1991 - 1993 - 2,7 Targa
2004 - 2013 - 993 Targa
2015 - 2016 3,2 Targa '84
2008...356 roadster T5 S90
2013...2,4 E 72 Sunroof under restoration
2016...3,2 Targa '86
2018...3,2 Speedster '89

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Frederic Prince
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Re: Distributors

#19 Post by Frederic Prince »

Glenn Ring wrote:
Mike Wilson wrote:I also talked with another gentleman who rebuilds distributors and he said that he no longer uses them for the same reasons.

Mike Wilson
Lomita, CA
'63 B coupe
Was that me? Because I not only found a number of the magnets not being exactly 90º I also found the hole in the mounting plate for the brass points pin was too small. After talking to Pertronix tech support and supplying them with pictures with my caliper they did confirm that their current stock was too small. Their response was for me to continue to enlarge the hole myself and they would correct it in the next production run.

Basically i was told.. live with it and i decided to stop installing them instead.

I can tell you that I used a Gene Berg CDI system on my 12v VW for a number of years and it worked like the Tiger in that it used the points as a trigger. I gapped the points at .010" and didn't replaced them for 30,000 miles. Since there's no voltage passing through them they will not pit. I just made sure the cam was greased and i bet they would of lasted longer.

Image
Nice engine Glenn
No heaters - what state?

Also what is pic 5593 showing? *
Also - how did you set up the fuel line sto your carbs?

Thanks

Edit * - got it
I'm on Long Island, New York, USA and honestly never liked the heat from those so called large tube heater boxes. It's not a daily driver but I do drive it in the winter on nice days.

5593
http://www.glenn-ring.com/engine/images/155_5593.jpg
It's a Gene Berg CDI ignition. It worked great but I had a problem with it and decided to go back to a run of the mill blue coil (NOS German of course).

The fuel line is .250" OD (.194" ID) 316 seamless stainless steel. It runs to the mechanical fuel pump then back tot he front of the fan shroud where I have a 316 stainless Tee and then to each carb.
http://www.glenn-ring.com/engine/images/156_5694.jpg

If you goto my site www.glenn-ring.com there are a lot of pictures and commentary on my car and the build.
you said you had a problem, what kind ?
1991 - 1993 - 2,7 Targa
2004 - 2013 - 993 Targa
2015 - 2016 3,2 Targa '84
2008...356 roadster T5 S90
2013...2,4 E 72 Sunroof under restoration
2016...3,2 Targa '86
2018...3,2 Speedster '89

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Glenn Ring
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Re: Distributors

#20 Post by Glenn Ring »

Frederic Prince wrote:you said you had a problem, what kind ?
It would drop out above 3000rpm. By the time I got home I could barely keep the engine running so I removed it and replaced it with a Bosch blue coil. They car was instantly back to normal operation. A few weeks later I found that the wire for the tach was chaffed and grounding my points. I replaced it and i'm sure that was the cause of the CDI problem.

Honestly i've found no drop in performance with the blue coil so i've just never got around to reinstalling it, but I will some day.
Glenn Ring

Restored Bosch Distributors

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Frederic Prince
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Re: Distributors

#21 Post by Frederic Prince »

the problem is not a performance problem, just a quick burning of the points without CDI, no ?
1991 - 1993 - 2,7 Targa
2004 - 2013 - 993 Targa
2015 - 2016 3,2 Targa '84
2008...356 roadster T5 S90
2013...2,4 E 72 Sunroof under restoration
2016...3,2 Targa '86
2018...3,2 Speedster '89

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Glenn Ring
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Re: Distributors

#22 Post by Glenn Ring »

I had 30,000 + miles on the last set of points with the CDI. My current set has 12,000 miles with a blue coil. I just checked them a few days ago and they look fine and didn't need any adjustment.

My personal opinion i that unless you need some of the features of a fancy ignition system the standard points and coil works just fine, even with a performance engine.
Glenn Ring

Restored Bosch Distributors

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Dave Wildrick
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Location: Houston, TX

Re: Distributors

#23 Post by Dave Wildrick »

i've put an 123 distributor on my car and found that the timing point at idle was not correct, moving from + or - 5-8°.

So i removed it and put back the 031 I've had checked

fred ;)©
Fred,
Maybe you got a bad one, because one of their sales propaganda statements touts their stability.

My friend, Jim Learmonth was using a Don Marks rebuilt 018 distributor with conventional points/condensor.

He substituted the 123 in its place and says his 65C coupe has never run better. I have no personal experience with the 123 ignition, but I had a Pertronix fail on a long road trip and no longer use those. I appreciate not having to mess with setting points and timing.

I put an Ab Tiedemann rebuilt 018 in my 65C coupe but saw no performance improvement over using my Brazilian 050. Others will have different perceptions.
Dave Wildrick
Houston, TX
#10230
64C coupe
65C coupe

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Frederic Prince
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Re: Distributors

#24 Post by Frederic Prince »

Ok, i'll try to send it back in holland to 123 and see if the new model will do the same ;)
1991 - 1993 - 2,7 Targa
2004 - 2013 - 993 Targa
2015 - 2016 3,2 Targa '84
2008...356 roadster T5 S90
2013...2,4 E 72 Sunroof under restoration
2016...3,2 Targa '86
2018...3,2 Speedster '89

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Mike Wilson
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Re: Distributors

#25 Post by Mike Wilson »

It was Glenn Ring & I that discussed the Pertronix. It is my habit to not disclose who I talk to about things unless I have their permission to do so. Thanks so much for your input, Glenn. There are those of you out there that have infinitely more experience about these things than I do. I can only offer anecdotal input. Hopefully Pertronix will step up to the plate. The other issue with them is that if you want to change the curve, you have to "slot" the holding plate so it can be adjusted.

Mike Wilson
Lomita, CA
'63 B coupe
Mike Wilson
Lomita, CA
'63 B coupe

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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Distributors

#26 Post by Jacques Lefriant »

Mike Wilson wrote:The other issue with them is that if you want to change the curve, you have to "slot" the holding plate so it can be adjusted.
Hi
By curve do you mean the advance vs rpm plot. that can be only altered by mechanical means eg changing the weights springs etc. The proximity of the Hall sensor to the magnetic field change may result in a better angularity distribution and can be done if you are bored. Even if the distributor is made perfect there exist other issues that result in less than optimum performance. There exists the technology do achieve much better ignition but the reality is there are satisfactory implementations that should satisfy most of us.
jacques
 

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Glenn Ring
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Re: Distributors

#27 Post by Glenn Ring »

Jacques Lefriant wrote:Even if the distributor is made perfect there exist other issues that result in less than optimum performance. There exists the technology do achieve much better ignition
jacques
Lash in the driveshaft and the bras gear on the crank can cause the timing not to be precise.

The ultimate option is to go with a crank fire system and black box that eliminates the distributor and you can program the curve with a computer. But the reason we love these cars is the old technology, the noisy engine, the SMELL and all the mechanical bits like points, solid lifters and dual carbs. If you want a "turn the key" and drive it anytime, anywhere car, get a Honda.

Just my 2¢
Glenn Ring

Restored Bosch Distributors

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Mike Wilson
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Re: Distributors

#28 Post by Mike Wilson »

As Jacques and Glenn put it in so much better terms than I could, there are other variables at work here. The distributor was thoroughly checked out by a two very competent mechanics with a combined 60+ years of experience so I rely upon their expertise and advise. I will ask them about your comment about the proximity of the Hall device but I'm sure they have checked that as well. The engine was fairly recently rebuilt so I'm confident that lash and the crank gear are o.k.

I'll continue to try to sort things out with much help from my friends. It is enjoyable to work on these cars and their old school technology. Thanks, Guys.


Mike Wilson
Lomita, CA
'63 B coupe
Mike Wilson
Lomita, CA
'63 B coupe

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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Distributors

#29 Post by Jacques Lefriant »

Mike
As you were probably made aware of there is another potential issue with all systems. what is refered to as phasing that is the alignment of the rotor to the cap post. Pertronix is deficient in this area because of the inadjustability of the unit and the loose fit of the magnet holder. The Bosch centrifugal distributors are almost immune to this since the only variability is the point gap but it is a problem on DME units like the 911 3.2/3.6 engines that use dummy distributors.
jacques
 

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Mike Wilson
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Re: Distributors

#30 Post by Mike Wilson »

Jacques: You are right on the money with the lack of adjustment. I wish there was a way to be able to adjust this alignment and tighten the magnet holder.

Thanks again! Much appreciated.

Mike Wilson
Lomita, Ca
'63 B coupe
Mike Wilson
Lomita, CA
'63 B coupe

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