Painting a Pre A '55

[Vincent Gillespie]

Hello, We're getting closer to painting and I want to give the painter an accurate list of areas and the coating needed. Is the list below about correct as I'm not sure what was simply overspray from the last paint it had back to it's original azure blue.
The obvious bits; underseal on the underneath & body colour on the top bits and all of the passenger compartment including those areas covered with the various bits of upholstery. I've no idea what was on the floor as it was simply rust & holes!
Now the other bits; inside the front trunk sides sprayed with underseal then a sprayed body colour all other areas looked like 'satin' black. The same painted underseal was on the engine side of firewall with the rest satin black. The inside of the headlight buckets body coloured?
I have seen the post on brush painted bits but I'm not yet that mad to worry about this.
Once again thanks in advance for all help & advice.
V&S

[James Davies]

Hi Vincent,

I'm basing this off 1953 coupes mostly, but it is true for cars going back to 1950 and up through '55 too I think. Would be happy for corrections:

Body color for a coupe:

- exterior, including headlight buckets
- interior and exterior of both front and rear lids, including latches. Not sure about the spring on the front latch.
- exterior and partially (sloppy) on inside of doors. Be sure to prime the doors well, and the schutz (undercoat) on the inside of the skin. Exterior color overspray is fine on the inner door structures that hold the handle and winder.
- interior passenger area up to the A, B, C pillars (roof kept in primer). Be sure to get the area behind the dash, including the defroster tube/funnels. Be sloppy here, so you get some nice runs on the defroster funnels and leave some exposed primer on the backside of the horizontal defroster tube.
- dash gets 1 coat of exterior color front and back. Then, if the exterior color is light and the dash is dark (almost always the case), then the front side of the dash gets the dark color. Be sure to get some nice overspray on the rear of the dash, just like Reutter did it.
- sides and rear of luggage compartment get body color.
- aluminum door hinge covers get body color just on the front side. Just primer on the back.

Black semi-gloss:

- luggage area floor except for side and back walls (which get body color). Some of this will also get covered in schutz.
- battery box (also gets shutz)
- engine area (also gets covered in schutz). Reutter I think just did schutz over the primer. But all black.
- Above driver/passenger knees below the gas tank. Spray this from driver's side so you leave some primer exposed on the angles you don't hit. Just like Reutter. Footwell. Floor. (If the carpet was dark blue, the areas here gets painted dark, dark blue) The footwell and floor get this black (or dark blue) color covered in 1 layer of schutz, some of it brushed on around the tunnel and pedals (so as not to get schutz inside the tunnel or on the pedals arms.
- inside of the front nose, above battery box. The latch and jack holder area. Bottom of latch gets black, top body color. Do body color first, then black over the top. Feel free to leave some primer exposed. Did your car have grey primer or red oxide primer? Mine has lots of red oxide primer exposed. Some exterior colors used a beige primer. It seems to have varied by manufacturer and time? Typical were a red oxide primer or a beige primer.
- rear parts of lid hinges, the parts that recess into the body.

Schutz (undercoat):

- originally this stuff was terrosol or terroson
- A couple thick layers on the complete underside of the car, including fender wells, inside front of nose and rear clips. Remember, this stuff is "stone guard" and a good part of the sound insulation. Modern stuff like Würth will probably require several coats to get the ~2mm thickness original to our cars.
- Single layer (~1mm thickness) on the inside floor of the car, including the rear quarter panel side walls, rear seat cushion area (bottom buckets and back).
- General rule on the interior: if you're going to glue carpet there, it doesn't get schutz. Gluing carpet to oil-based tar stuff doesn't work well, and Reutter didn't do it as far as I can tell. This goes for the luggage area sidewalls and rear wall too, which got vinyl padding (in 1955) and tar-board sound deadening on the walls around the fuel tank. Not schutz on the front kick panels where the carpet pockets are, though do put shutz on the side footwell areas where carpet doesn't cover and are covered by the wood pedal board.
- whole engine compartment gets schutz for '53 and earlier cars (just like Speedsters). Don't know how the '54 and '55 coupes and cabs were, as these also had vinyl padding as sound deadener. Schutz in the engine area also on the inside of the exterior bodywork panels all the way up to the rear latch. Bottom of rain gutter does not get it, so mask that off, or be a little sloppy there; Reutter was.
- battery box floor and walls (though not inside of front nose (curved area). Get the little stands that hold the tire at and angle too. No schutz on the luggage compartment walls were the vinyl padding goes (or carpet padding on earlier pre-As). Top side of the little platform where the jack clamps are attached gets shutz. Feel free to sloppily get parts of the jack clamps too. Get schutz all the way back behind the battery onto the torsion tubes and little narrow floor area in the center below torsion tubes.
- luggage area floor from the tire up to the gas tank. Under the gas tank does not get schutz, just black paint and felt strip pads between floor and gas tank. Areas to the side of the gas tank get schutz. Mask off the chassis number raised area from getting shutz. Just black paint there.

A thicker version of Terrosol was used as a sealant on all the seams before the car was painted and given schutz. Brushed on with a wide brush So bottom of the car seams gets it, and the inside areas in the seams behind the dash, etc. Any seam that might let in water gets it, especially areas behind dash below windshield, around the hinge pockets, etc. Then the paint is done over the seam sealer on the inside, and schutz over it on the bottom side.

Did I miss anything?

[Vincent Gillespie]

James simply brilliant, once again you're a star, I now owe you so many beers, or cups of tea, whichever is your preference, I'll have to use a tanker.

On ours under the roof lining was body coloured and the primer was grey. I wasn't sure if the shutz on the interior floor was a later addition covering up the rust or original, a bit of both I suspect, but now I know. Also the body colour on the firewall looked like it had been sprayed over the Shutz, the rest of the engine bay didn't have any shutz, but it had a rear shunt in the '60s so what happened during the repair who knows. On the sides of the luggage compartment there appeared to be light shutz overspray on top of the colour, I have assumed this was just 'what the hell' use of the spray gun. V&S

[James Davies]

Very interesting Vincent! Thanks for the extra data points on the '55 engine area and the interior roof area.

What color was yours originally? I have wondered if the red oxide primer was used on the nitro cars and grey primer on the enamel cars. Just speculation on my part.

[Vincent Gillespie]

Hello, Azure Blue, at some time it was resprayed a 'burgundy red' but then returned to Azure Blue. Whoever did that got a really good match to the original as you can see, even through the dirt, in the photo.
V

[James Davies]

Interesting Vincent! The blue in your photo looks much lighter than the Azure blue I'm familiar with. Perhaps its the lighting? The photos below are the typical Azure blue I've seen. Perhaps yours was repainted a bit lighter blue the 2nd time when painted over the burgundy red, and perhaps this explains the schutz in the engine bay being painted over in blue? Just a guess.

[JohnLiles]

Good morning James and Vincent !

James , there is a nice '52 coupe for sale here in UK , Robert Gant, I looked at this car a few years ago , I think it is Azure Blue , the pictures below look very similar to yours colourwise , can look lighter to the eye in good light , think same colour also on the 55 Continental in the ? Collier ? Ingram collection.

[James Davies]

Thanks for sharing John. Yes, that's definitely Azure blue on coupe 11976.

[Spencer Harris]

there is a nice '52 coupe for sale here in UK

James & John, I believe your photos may be mislabeled. The '52 in John's post I think is a '53 (with the signal lights directly under the headlights) and James' photo labeled "Resize of 1953_Porsche_1500_Cabriolet_---_Cars___Coffee_048.jpg" I believe is a '52 (with the signal lights inset from the headlights). Unquestionably both are gorgeous in Azure Blue.
Thanks for the paint reference list James. I'm pasting this into my authenticity spreadsheet!
This is a wonderful collection of photos in the Photobucket album John. Thanks for sharing these!

[Vincent Gillespie]

Hello and once again thanks for all this invaluable information. Is Azure Blue metallic?, as this does not come across in any of these photos, mind you it doesn't come across in ours either. If it isn't Sandi will be delighted as she doesn't like it and much prefers the colour shown in these photos. I don't suppose if I said to the paint supplier '1955 Porsche Azure Blue please' they could press a button and it would be mixed, so how does one go about getting a colour shade today to match Azure blue of the 50's.
Regarding the firewall coating, judging by the fixing of the fibreboard/blue black felt panel which I am sure had not been touched since assembly what is seen in the photo is how it left the factory.
Thanks V&S

[James Davies]

Hi Spencer,

The cabriolet pictured above is 15039. It was built right at the end of 1952 and has some '53 features I believe, such as a 519 transaxle (not positive on this). By chassis 15064, the spare tire was held down by a strap, not the '52 horn, and by 15111 all the familiar '53 features where in place - beehive signal lights, 519 transmision, '53 engines, though still some '52 interior features. These were all built in '52 and can be considered either '52 model year cars or '53 model year cars, depending on what you think defines the model year. In reality there was a slow changeover. Amongst coupes, this changeover happened over chassis numbers 11779 to ~11955, where you had 519 transaxles early, change of the bodywork and bumpers, then eventual change to beehives and updating of interior (seemingly in that order). The coupe shown above in John's photos is 11976 from ~Dec 1952.

Vincent, there were 2 common blues during the pre-A period:

- Azure blue, a dark, non-metallic blue, as seen above
- Adria blue metallic, a blueish-tinted silver

In 1956, a 3rd blue was added, also metallic, called Aquamarine blue metallic. This was a saturated blue, darker than Adria blue, but not as dark as Azure. Reutter had real problems painting this with the new enamel paints, and it was resulting in lots of problems with the finishes and costing them a lot, so they eventually reformulated it as a non-metallic in 1957. In 1954 and 1955, the non-metallic paints were the new enamels, but the old metallic colors and new ones for those years (Jade green, Graphite and Silver) were still nitrocellulose lacquer.

As for getting a correct Azure blue, getting a spray-out card of the color from John Willhoit would be a good first step. You can have your painter color match that in whatever paint system he's going to use. Glasurit also has a formula on file for Azure blue that you could have mixed up and sprayed on a test panel, to see what you think. I would do those two things at a minimum. I wouldn't trust either absolutely, but they will be close probably. Glasurit was the original maker of the Azure blue paint, but that does not mean they have a correct current formula. And Willhoit's spray-out cars are quite accurate for some pre-A colors (Ivory for instance), but not for others (Fish-silver grey). Paint changes a lot over time, especially nitrolack, so it is very difficult to match. Metallic colors even more so, as how the metal flakes stand up or lay down has a big effect on the resulting look. Hopefully your Azure will match easily.

I suspect that the engine insulation had been removed for repaint on your car, and that's why there's that lighter blue paint over the schutz in the engine area. I don't think that light blue paint was sprayed by Reutter, as they didn't normally use such a color. Though it is possible it was a custom blue. Did you find the darker blue Azure color behind the dash on your car, on the defroster tube and vents, and on the firewall? This would have been the original color/shade of your car if it was indeed Azure blue.

[jim saunders]

The Aquamarine Blue metallic that James refers to above is, in my opinion one of the colours best suited to the curved body shape of a 356. The metallic gives bright highlights, and the amount of black in the mix gives good dark shadow areas. Beautiful. But a near impossible colour to match today. Long ago I owned a 1956 1500GS Carrera coupe, originally this Aquamarine metallic, which had been stripped and left in primer. That's how I bought the car. Luckily I found the Glovebox strap had it's original good thick coat of paint. The engine firewall still had it's paint too, but only a thin coat, so a completely different looking colour. I matched the colour as exactly as I could to the strap. At the time I tried to get a formula going, as none of the cars I had seen in photos, that had been repainted, came anywhere close. In certain lights this colour had a lovely greyish look in shadow areas as well. The blue in repainted cars was usually way too bright as well. As I said, a hard colour to get correct. Over a period of about a year I had colour mixed and sprayed out, modified, new formula code, sprayed out, over and over. I finally got as close as possible, and had a formula. Then I think Glasurit changed their paints all over again.
The car I have now is Slate Grey thankfully.

[Vincent Gillespie]

Hello all, James brilliant as usual, Jim & Spencer invaluable help. I have just double checked the Kardex and it's definitely Azure, so Sandi is delighted! The idea that it was metallic seemed to enter my head for some reason & that was it. I have also had another look at the piece I chipped off from the upper area of the footwell behind the dashboard, that I believe was never reached by the resprays, and to my eye is as shown in the photos.
James, I will certainly follow your advice and contact John Willhoit and, to be honest, a close match it's fine by us, it's not metallic WOOHOO! & life's too short to worry about minute shade differences.

Regarding the firewall, attached are photos of the internal side of fibreboard attachment 'spikes', to me these seem untouched and the captive nuts were also were undisturbed on the engine side fibreboard panel. That's why I believe this was never removed from first installation, what do you think?

Regrading this sandwich of panels I have also attached a photo of the upholstered panel which, as you can see, has an indentation in the middle of the top. One of the screws was present, it was a slotted pan head chromed screw, but what it held I have no idea. I'm wondering if it was a personalized addition of a buffer for the seat back?

Once again we'd like to thank everyone who give us all this wonderful advice & help.

Regards

V&S

[James Davies]

Hi Vincent,

That's great that you have a chip of paint from behind the dash. When you get your Willhoit spray-out card, you'll be able to compare. I think you'll find it to be super close. The Azure blue on your car was enamel, so hopefully it has kept its color a bit better than the Nitrolack paint used on the earlier cars. Anyway, as you say, getting close should be good enough! What's important is that you like the color. Even more important, your wife likes the color! =)

And thanks for the photos Vincent. Not sure what those indentations could possibly be. Maybe a 3rd light for reverse sticking out the rear window? Seems odd place for something like that. The vinyl is in very nice shape!

Not sure what I'm looking at on the other panel. Is this the engine bay insulation panel? The backside? If so, it looks like it has picked up the black from the original schutz perhaps? Hard to tell.

[Vincent Gillespie]

Hello James, I should have added a longer shot, these are a couple of pictures from the inside of the car looking towards the engine/out the rear window and this is the fibreboard panel immediately behind the upholstered panel and on top of the metal firewall. It has a layer of finely chopped coir stuck to it which is immediately up against the firewall metal, acting as the 1st sound deadening layer on the inside of the car. The knife points to the head of a fixing pin which looked to me untouched since installation. These went through the firewall, the blue/black felt and engine side fibreboard, where the retaining clips also looked untouched as well. This is why I surmised the paint on top of the 'shutz', in the engine bay, was original as well.

The black stuff you refer to on the fibreboard is mold!!, hmm finely chopped coir & mold, sounds like a recipe for an essence of Porsche soup!

I hope this clarifies things & thanks for taking the time to help all of us wondering about these details.

V&S