dated Wheels

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David Green
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Re: dated Wheels

#16 Post by David Green »

I don't often visit this Authenticity Corner but I'm glad I came across this thread and hopefully others can clear up my confusion as to how to know a car's actual "build date" from which to back up to correctly identify proper wheel dates. The Kardex for my 1959 A coupe shows "28 Jan. 59" as the "Ausgel.am" date, which I believe translates to "Delivery Date". My COA confirms this stating that ".... was delivered on January 28, 1959, ....". I can't find another place on the Kardex that would indicate a build date. Given the uncertainty with shipping times, inventory and then-market conditions, how does one know (or reasonably estimate) the actual build date based on the delivery date? Is there another source for the "build dates" that are often mentioned?
Thanks,
David

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Vic Skirmants
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Re: dated Wheels

#17 Post by Vic Skirmants »

Reading the transmission assembly date is probably as good as you can get. I have a 1957 coupe delivered in March, 1957. Trans is dated January 1957. The wheels are dated August and October 1956. ALL original.

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James Davies
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Re: dated Wheels

#18 Post by James Davies »

Kardex dates are usually about a week after the production completion dates. At least during the early 50s this seems to be the case. For the car we are discussing here, it is 5 days: 6 April to 11 April according the COA/Kardex and Mike Smith's production completion date.

Not sure what that last week of sitting around the factory entailed. I suspect all the quality control inspections and test drive were done prior to the production completion date. The date on the Kardex is not the delivery date either. It is merely the date the Kardex was filled out and from that point there was a 6-month warranty. It is most likely the date the car left the factory for shipment to the distributor. There are lots of factory photos from the 50s showing lots of cars in the parking lot ready to be shipped out. It seems this happened in batches.

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Re: dated Wheels

#19 Post by Roy Lock »

I be seen a few Kardex cards in my time. The one thing I can say about them is that they are consistent in their inconsistency. Some have both the "birth" and "sales" bank. Others have the same day. Other times, the "sales" date is BEFORE the "birth" date (???). Go figure that one out.
The one point I would like to make is that the Kardex is not meant to be a production record. It is a warranty record.
I like Vic's method for determining the approximate date of manufacture.
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Re: dated Wheels

#20 Post by Mike Smith »

Kardex dates are usually about a week after the production completion dates. At least during the early 50s this seems to be the case. For the car we are discussing here, it is 5 days: 6 April to 11 April according the COA/Kardex and Mike Smith's production completion date.

Just for the Record and to be clear ---- The date I quoted for 111 373 was the actual date that the car had fuel added and it rolled off the line and went on its test drive
Mike Smith (Essex - UK)

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Re: dated Wheels

#21 Post by Edwin Ek »

There are no fields for birth (completion) date or sales date on the Kardexes I have seen. But I have only seen ones for later cars. Could be that the earlier Kardexes are different- I don't know.
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Re: dated Wheels

#22 Post by Roy Lock »

Edwin Ek wrote:There are no fields for birth (completion) date or sales date on the Kardexes I have seen. But I have only seen ones for later cars. Could be that the earlier Kardexes are different- I don't know.
ED, On all Kardex's there are two fields for dates. I have taken a snap shot of one that I have and shown those two fields. The date on the left is commonly used as the "birth date" and the field to the immediate right is commonly known as the "Sales date." These two fields are on the upper left hand corner of the Kardex and are part of the Kardex form; pre printed.
4aaa.jpg
This particular Kardex is for a 62 Roadster, the same model and year as yours.

As you can see, there is inconsistency in their consistency during the recording process. Why was the birth/manufactured date crossed out and a second date entered? Just goes to prove, nothing about these cars is cast in concrete.
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Re: dated Wheels

#23 Post by Edwin Ek »

Roy, I know well that there are several date fields on Kardexes. The labels of the two you highlight don't mean what you have said.
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James Davies
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Re: dated Wheels

#24 Post by James Davies »

From what I've seen, the earlier Kardex have fewer dates. Originally Porsche's warranty period extended 6 months from the day it left the factory, not from the day the customer bought it, which for Hoffman could be months later. Customers and Hoffman complained, and eventually Porsche had the warranty extended 6 months from the date of sale to the customer. Perhaps this is when they added that date to the Kardex?

The actual production completion dates are from Porsche's records and are independent of Kardex dates, as Mike Smith indicates. As mentioned, these are generally several days earlier than the date on the Kardex during the pre-A period. Not sure about later. These production completion dates are from internal Porsche documents, not the Kardex.

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Re: dated Wheels

#25 Post by William Sardella »

my 1965 C is absent of the original 4 1/2" x15" chrome wheels,how much or what percentage of the value is lost by not having the OEM wheels?

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Re: dated Wheels

#26 Post by Vic Skirmants »

Welcome aboard William.
I'm sure you will get many opinions on your question.
Personally, I don't get involved in "setting" prices for things like that.

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Adam Wright
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Re: dated Wheels

#27 Post by Adam Wright »

I have had a couple of one owner cars and have talked to several original owners and I have seen mixed dates on wheels, but when I go to sell a set they have to be all the same date, people won't accept mixed dates. It would make my job a lot easier if they did, but they just don't.
It takes years to build the sets.
Also, you have about a 3 month window prior to the build date of the car.
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Re: dated Wheels

#28 Post by James Davies »

The "3 month window" does not apply to all pre-A cars. At least not in 1953-54. I've seen cars completed in 7/53 with their original 2/53 Lemmerz, and cars completed 2/54 having their original 4/53 Lemmerz. So wheels were sitting around a long time on occasion, sometimes up to 10 months at Reutter. At least in 1953. =)

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Re: dated Wheels

#29 Post by Doug McDonnell »

3 months is probably not long enough. My 5 original wheels are dated 3/64 and my cars Production Completion date is 7/14/1964.
1965 356C 2000 BMW 740i Sport 1967 Honda CL77 There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.

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Adam Wright
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Re: dated Wheels

#30 Post by Adam Wright »

James Davies wrote:The "3 month window" does not apply to all pre-A cars. At least not in 1953-54. I've seen cars completed in 7/53 with their original 2/53 Lemmerz, and cars completed 2/54 having their original 4/53 Lemmerz. So wheels were sitting around a long time on occasion, sometimes up to 10 months at Reutter. At least in 1953. =)
I gave up a long time ago trying to find any constants with 16's. You have three manufacturers, KPZ, Lemmerz, and Sudrad, some riveted, some welded, and dates all over the place, like James said, months later. I think the early cars was a very chaotic build, compared to the later streamlined German efficency.
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