Help on strange engine type stamped on a '59 1600S

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Jim Karaba
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Re: Help on strange engine type stamped on a '59 1600S

#16 Post by Jim Karaba »

The lighter is from a VW. I agree with barry about the wiring "funnel" at the fuse bax junction. It almost looks as though it was removed (notice it has a different shade of paint on it compared to surrounding metal) when the wiring was run to avoid fishing the bundle through. If you remove the gas tank I bet you would find some screws holding it to the underside. I would assume the 4 small bolts in the mattery area are for a battery hold-down. Those data plates have definitely been changed, they have a slightly different font to the stampings and the rivits are huge.

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Jim Karaba
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Re: Help on strange engine type stamped on a '59 1600S

#17 Post by Jim Karaba »

Also noted the Aluminum VIN data plate is a repro and has the same unoriginal stampings, plus it is mounted in entirely the wrong location. They were originaly rivited with solid rivits lengthwise along side the right hand side of the gas tank. The floor to lingitudinal transition also looks suspect to me. It looks (and I wouldnt know for sure without putting my hands on it) like the floor was welded below the longitudinal as the "step" looks backwards. It is hard to tell with the seam sealer and undercoating in place, but it does not look like the longitudinal is on top of the floor but rather the floor is on top of the longitudinal (looking up from the ground obviously).

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roy mawbey
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Re: Help on strange engine type stamped on a '59 1600S

#18 Post by roy mawbey »

Laurent,

As I mentioned you would get some interesting information back from posting photo's. I am sure as Barry mentioned we are not here to criticise this car but only to make sure you are aware. Some of these points are very valid and makes one wonder why things have been changed.

I post below some photo's of these area's mentioned above so you can compare. My car has never had these items removed ( or rather changed ) in over 40 years since I have owned it and I believe all the stamped items like data plates are original 1959.

1). The plaque under the front hood on the right side of the petrol tank
2008_0131carbitsalexpics0008.JPG

You will notice there is no 'S' after 1600 on this plate, the engine casting has the 'S' but not this data plate.
2). This shows the rivit size on the door plates
2009_0711variousporsche0009.JPG
3). This shows the steering wheel flasher.
2009_0729356flasher0001.JPG
4). Battery box the cover seems to sit in a different postion to your photo
2010_0823capeljackbootinside0030.JPG
5). fuse box area.
2010_0814coilglovebox0015.JPG
I guess things like the rev counter being a normal instead of a super version might be explained in the documentation, but just be careful. My car also has the 716 transmission.

cheers

Roy
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Barry Brisco
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Re: Help on strange engine type stamped on a '59 1600S

#19 Post by Barry Brisco »

roy mawbey wrote: 1). The plaque under the front hood on the right side of the petrol ...
You will notice there is no 'S' after 1600 on this plate, the engine casting has the 'S' but not this data plate.
Roy, sometimes there is an "S" on data plates in 1600S cars, as shown in this photo of the data plate in the trunk of my 1600 Super.
Image

Laurent, the trunk data plate in the car you are looking at certainly looks like a modern replacement plate.

I do wonder why the rear decklid doesn't have the last digits of the chassis number stamped on it. Maybe it is a replacement because the car was hit in the rear and the original decklid could not be repaired.

It would be interesting to remove the door panels and check for numbers. It really isn't very much work to do that.

Barry

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C J Murray
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Re: Help on strange engine type stamped on a '59 1600S

#20 Post by C J Murray »

Laurant- I understand your fears and it does seem to make sense to ask the "experts" on this site what is wrong with a perspective purchase but there is a down side. People love to criticize other people's cars and it is especially easy to do so when they are not in front of the owner/seller. Since the vast majority of the cars that attend 356 events are not perfect it is likely that the people expressing opinions here are living with a non-perfect car. I don't own any perfect cars. So the real question is...."what are YOUR expectations"?

Some people want to have all matching numbers and everything exactly as it left the factory.

Some people want a body that has perfect gaps and no plastic body filler.

Some people want to drive the car long distances with ease and reliability.

Some people want a very rare model.

Some people want every mechanical upgrade to modernize their 356.

Different people want different things to give them that gratifying ownership experience so when you add up all the things that our well meaning posters think are important then you may end up looking for a car that does not exist at any price.

I think that a car can be judged in three basic ways. The quality of the body and paint which is very expensive to correct and hard to evaluate. The mechanical condition and function which is easier to fix and less expensive but not cheap to correct. The originality or lack there of and how that appeals to you.

If you are not qualified to evaluate the car then find somebody to help you and make sure that you see the car yourself also. Good luck.

Cliff
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Barry Brisco
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Re: Help on strange engine type stamped on a '59 1600S

#21 Post by Barry Brisco »

Cliff, very well said.

I tried to make clear in my post that all I could do just based on photos was comment on what the photos showed, which means just commenting on "correctness" and not on paint quality, driveability, handling, presence or absence of rust, etc. Those are the really important areas, and no matter how many photos I saw of the car in question I couldn't say much about them.

My car certainly is not "perfect" by any standard, which is fine with me. I like to drive it.

Thanks,
Barry Brisco
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Jim Breazeale
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Re: Help on strange engine type stamped on a '59 1600S

#22 Post by Jim Breazeale »

Laurent

You have received some valuable information and advice from experienced people.
My take on this car is that it has been restored by an Italian Craftsman, experienced with high end restorations of Fiat 500s.
The work seems to be done well, some of it is a bit misguided, though. The car may just make a very nice driver and can be enjoyed for that.

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Jim Breazeale
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Laurent Clerc
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Re: Help on strange engine type stamped on a '59 1600S

#23 Post by Laurent Clerc »

[quote="Jim Breazeale"] is that it has been restored by an Italian Craftsman, experienced with high end restorations of Fiat 500s.[/quote]

:D LOL

Far from being perfect, but nice "Fiat 500" anyway :wink:

Greetings
Last edited by Laurent Clerc on Thu May 23, 2013 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

Laurent Clerc
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Re: Help on strange engine type stamped on a '59 1600S

#24 Post by Laurent Clerc »

Hello,

To thank you all for your expert comments, observations and advices, but above all your time.

To summarize, it is good car far from being perfect from an authenticity point of view. This impacting on the value. Of course I would like to find a perfect one at a fraction of the cost, but miracle do not exist. When I've visited this one I was pretty enthusiast, then I started spotting things, the engine first, and calm down. Then I've read all your info, and started to be skeptical. So I recalled what I've read somewhere here: "Buy the best car you can afford" and "Prefer body condition against mechanical condition". Finally as said Cliff, "What are my expectations?", I would say enjoy a nice looking car, sharing enthusiasm with people, being able to travel 400 miles round trip without to much hassles and if possible not be too much ashamed of my car if I have the chance to meet another 356 fan. I will discussed with the vendor and try to apply both a "mystery engine" and an "authenticity" discount factor. Wait & see... and as someone has told me few months ago "356 are like buses, there is always another coming soon".

Thank you again for your support

Have a good weekend

Greetings
Last edited by Laurent Clerc on Thu May 23, 2013 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Steve Harrison
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Re: Help on strange engine type stamped on a '59 1600S

#25 Post by Steve Harrison »

I can't comment on the car beyond what has been said already, but I can say that Mr. Clerc you are approaching this purchase with grace and class. Glad to have you in the club. Good luck with your purchase adventure. Keep us posted.

Steve

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