Difference between Reproduction and Original items

For those who obsess about exactly how their 356 left the factory!
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Paul Hatfield
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items

#76 Post by Paul Hatfield » Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:36 pm

I have been meaning for some time now to add information about original leather straps. We have already covered the spare tire belt, but there are a lot of reproduction belts for the luggage and ski straps. I'll be the first to admit that my luggage belts are not in the best of shape, but I submit these pictures as originals, not as beauty shots.

I've included shots of my ski straps for my luggage rack. For some reason I have 6 of them. All have the same buckles and leather material, but they have different degrees of color fading. I attribute that to different exposure to sunlight (some more than the others).

Anyway, with these photos you can see the details of the original buckles and rivets, along with the poor condition of my black luggage belts.

Hope this is helpful to some of you trying to determine if you are looking at purchasing original or reproduction.

Best Regards,
Paul
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Mt Rainier 2011 008 (Large).jpg
Mt Rainier 2011 010 (Large).jpg
Last edited by Paul Hatfield on Wed May 29, 2013 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Richard Milstead
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items

#77 Post by Richard Milstead » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:00 pm

Paul,
I am attaching some pictures of two sets of original luggage straps that I have for comparison. The black set in the pictures are the usual straps intended to be used in the rear compartment which were supplied with factory leather luggage sets or could be purchased separately. The set shown reportedly came from a '65 SC delivered in Germany. The brown set is 5 of the 6 pieces of the straps intended to be used with the Leitz luggage rack available for the B/C cars. The missing strap is the long one intended to stretch side to side with the leather keeper at one end and the pointed end with holes at the other end. It would have been similar to the two ones shown for top to bottom, only longer. While the set for luggage in the rear area is seen from time to time the Leitz luggage strap set is very rare in my experience. I have also attached a picture from the Accessories Catalog (from Charlie White's web site) showing how the straps were used with the Leitz rack. Note that the strap set used with the earlier Reutter racks was only 4 pieces (one top to bottom and one side to side) and the sets had different Accessory Numbers. I will also post another set of Detailed pictures on the Leitz Rack set.
I also have what I believe to be an NOS set of the ski straps but they are at a different location and I haven't photographed them yet. Basically I think they are identical to the ones you show.
Dick Milstead
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Outside Luggage Straps Accessory Catalog Picture.jpg
Outside Luggage Straps Accessory Catalog Picture.jpg (10.66 KiB) Viewed 3464 times
Inside&Outside luggage Straps 3.jpg
Inside&Outside luggage Straps 2.jpg
Inside&Outside luggage Straps 1.jpg
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items

#78 Post by Richard Milstead » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:08 pm

Paul,
Here are some additional pictures of details on the Leitz Luggege Rack Straps. Sorry that a couple are a little fuzzy (blame the camera man). The end configuration around the buckles is basically identical for both the rear luggage straps (Inside) and the Leitz Rack straps (Outside). Dimentionally the Leitz Rack straps are slightly wider.
Dick Milstead
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Outside luggage Straps Detail 6.jpg
Outside luggage Straps Detail 5.jpg
Outside luggage Straps Detail 4.jpg
Outside luggage Straps Detail 3.jpg
Outside luggage Straps Detail 2.jpg
Outside luggage Straps Detail 1.jpg
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items

#79 Post by Charlie White » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:21 pm

Here's one of a set of red ski straps that I've had forever. At one point they were very dry and stiff. Soaked them in motor oil, and now they are supple and soft.

CW
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SkiStrap004a.jpg
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items

#80 Post by Richard Milstead » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Paul,
One last thing. I realize that the luggage rack shown in the Accessories catalog picture is not a Leitz rack but a Reutter version. I believe that when the photo shoot was done they just used what was available for the picture. They weren't quite as anal as we are about such things. I have attached a picture (again I believe from Charlie's site) of the Reutter Rack strap set. Obviously 'in the day' you could have used either one if you wanted. Porsche would have been happy to sell you whichever.
Dick Milstead
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-12Straps.jpg
-12Straps.jpg (26.39 KiB) Viewed 3450 times
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items

#81 Post by Paul Hatfield » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:28 pm

Dick-
Providing pictures of just the buckle and rivet area. To me it looks different that the ones you have posted. Again, the black ones I have posted pictures are my belts, and I "assume" they are luggage straps for the back seat area.
-Paul
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Mt Rainier 2011 002 (Large).jpg
Mt Rainier 2011 001 (Large).jpg
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items

#82 Post by Richard Milstead » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:59 pm

Paul,
The straps you have could be different and both sets still be original, IMHO, just made in different periods. The ones I have came from the original owner and were purchased in Germany when the car ('65 SC) was picked up at the Factory (or so the story goes!). I note thet the arrangement for attaching the buckle end on yours uses the ring style keeper instead of the second buckle with added strap that is found on my set. How do you attach that to the bracket in the car? If you look at the picture on Charlie's site of original straps from the Accessories Catalog you will see the buckle arrangement like my set. I have also seen a set of supposed originals that replaces the ring keeper on the belt side (one with holes) with a buckle arrangement as well. Your set is of the period I believe and probably made by whomever did these for Porsche because of the telltale whiteish finish on the flesh side of the leather which is partually still intact and visable in your picture. Note the same white finish on the back if the leather in my Leitz strap shots. Remember this type of strap was being sold through Porsche beginning in the early A era through the late C (and beyond).
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items

#83 Post by Paul Hatfield » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:30 pm

Can't say that I have ever attached them because every time I touch them something else breaks. These are really old and no longer good. The buckle is interesting with it sides curved outward. If one tries, the "D" ring side just passes through the buckle. Not sure if that has anything to do with how they install, but interesting. Going to have to rely on others to tell us how they attached.
I'll say this. The reproduction ones might have great leather and directions on how to use them, but I bet they don't have this special shaped buckle.

Paul
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items

#84 Post by Edwin Ek » Sun May 15, 2016 11:32 pm

Reviving this very useful thread. Is there a way to tell original lenses for Hella 128 fog lights from the reproductions? I have heard that reproductions have been in the market for at least 20 years.

I am surprised that Hella wouldn't take steps to prevent this, since its logo is on the lense.
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items

#85 Post by Jim Alton » Fri May 20, 2016 11:24 am

Edwin Ek wrote:Reviving this very useful thread. Is there a way to tell original lenses for Hella 128 fog lights from the reproductions? I have heard that reproductions have been in the market for at least 20 years.

I am surprised that Hella wouldn't take steps to prevent this, since its logo is on the lense.
It's never been 100% clear whether or not Hella actually makes the 128s sold today. Sierra Madre Collection has both expensive lights sold with the Hella Logo in the ad and much less expensive lights sold without the logo.

Maybe the expensive reproductions are licensed by Hella.

When I bought the lights for my '65 911 I recall a guy at Performance Products saying they were made by Hella but they came in that blue and white striped box without Hella's name. Those were well made and I haven't spotted a difference.

All the new Hella 128s have the early "V" lens and Quartz-Halogen H3 bulbs so if you find a set that takes 35 watt tungsten bulbs or has the late lens it must be original.
2016-05-01 06.34.27.jpg
Hella 128 with late-style clear lens & yellow reflector on a 1968 Porsche 912 Targa
 
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items

#86 Post by Jim Alton » Fri May 20, 2016 3:57 pm

Well, I found a difference in Hella 128s.

Here's what I presume to be an original Hella 128 from my 911, 301328, delivered 21 June 1965 (the bulb holder's for the 35 W "tungsten" bulb):
2016-05-20 12.40.30.jpg
original Hella 128 from 911 # 301328, delivered 21 June 1965
Note that the two little brackets that hold the "ears" which engage the screws that hold the bezel and lens in place are welded in.

Here are the circa 1998 foglights now on my 911:
2016-05-20 12.40.11.jpg
circa 1998 Hella 128 foglights
Note that those "ears" are riveted in as are the ears on the one's Sierra Madre Collection sells as Hella Brand:
137899.jpg
Sierra Madre Collection "Hella Brabd" Hella 128s
137899.jpg (20.33 KiB) Viewed 2732 times
But! The same applies to the Hella 128's on the 1968 Porsche 912 Targa:
2016-05-01 06.34.20_PS.jpg
Close Up 1968 Porsche 912 Targa
2016-05-01 06.34.20.jpg
1968 912 Targa
Maybe they changed from welds to rivets because they changed materials. I think the shells may now be stainless steel which might be more challenging to weld,
 
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items

#87 Post by Jim Alton » Fri May 20, 2016 4:12 pm

Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headlamp#Tungsten-halogen tells us the introduction years for Quartz-Hologen Bulbs:
  • H1 (55 W @ 12.0 V, 1550 lumens ±15%) in 1962
  • H2 (55 W @ 12.0 V, 1820 lm @ 13.2 V) in 1964
      H3 (55 W @ 12.0 V, 1450 lm ±15%) in 1966
        H4 (dual filament) in 1971
       
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      Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items

      #88 Post by Edwin Ek » Fri May 20, 2016 7:06 pm

      Jim, thanks for this fantastic research! I am also interested in learning what the situation is with lenses. I spoke to Hella USA, and the fellow there didn't know anything and suggested I get in touch with Hella Germany. I also have a message into Eric Linden, the fellow who is making the nice reproductions now.
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      Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items

      #89 Post by Jim Alton » Fri May 20, 2016 7:12 pm

      Come to think of it, the rivets are kind of far back for the "ears." Maybe the rivets are for an H3 bulb holder instead of the "ears."
       
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      Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items

      #90 Post by Edwin Ek » Wed May 25, 2016 10:52 pm

      A fellow at German Hella said that the lenses are reproductions as well as the bodies. Now I wonder if there are ways to differentiate original lenses from the reproductions. Eric Linden might know the answer, but I haven't been able to raise him recently.
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