Difference between Reproduction and Original items
- Paul Hatfield
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items
I have been meaning for some time now to add information about original leather straps. We have already covered the spare tire belt, but there are a lot of reproduction belts for the luggage and ski straps. I'll be the first to admit that my luggage belts are not in the best of shape, but I submit these pictures as originals, not as beauty shots.
I've included shots of my ski straps for my luggage rack. For some reason I have 6 of them. All have the same buckles and leather material, but they have different degrees of color fading. I attribute that to different exposure to sunlight (some more than the others).
Anyway, with these photos you can see the details of the original buckles and rivets, along with the poor condition of my black luggage belts.
Hope this is helpful to some of you trying to determine if you are looking at purchasing original or reproduction.
Best Regards,
Paul
I've included shots of my ski straps for my luggage rack. For some reason I have 6 of them. All have the same buckles and leather material, but they have different degrees of color fading. I attribute that to different exposure to sunlight (some more than the others).
Anyway, with these photos you can see the details of the original buckles and rivets, along with the poor condition of my black luggage belts.
Hope this is helpful to some of you trying to determine if you are looking at purchasing original or reproduction.
Best Regards,
Paul
Last edited by Paul Hatfield on Wed May 29, 2013 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paul Hatfield
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- Richard Milstead
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items
Paul,
I am attaching some pictures of two sets of original luggage straps that I have for comparison. The black set in the pictures are the usual straps intended to be used in the rear compartment which were supplied with factory leather luggage sets or could be purchased separately. The set shown reportedly came from a '65 SC delivered in Germany. The brown set is 5 of the 6 pieces of the straps intended to be used with the Leitz luggage rack available for the B/C cars. The missing strap is the long one intended to stretch side to side with the leather keeper at one end and the pointed end with holes at the other end. It would have been similar to the two ones shown for top to bottom, only longer. While the set for luggage in the rear area is seen from time to time the Leitz luggage strap set is very rare in my experience. I have also attached a picture from the Accessories Catalog (from Charlie White's web site) showing how the straps were used with the Leitz rack. Note that the strap set used with the earlier Reutter racks was only 4 pieces (one top to bottom and one side to side) and the sets had different Accessory Numbers. I will also post another set of Detailed pictures on the Leitz Rack set.
I also have what I believe to be an NOS set of the ski straps but they are at a different location and I haven't photographed them yet. Basically I think they are identical to the ones you show.
Dick Milstead
I am attaching some pictures of two sets of original luggage straps that I have for comparison. The black set in the pictures are the usual straps intended to be used in the rear compartment which were supplied with factory leather luggage sets or could be purchased separately. The set shown reportedly came from a '65 SC delivered in Germany. The brown set is 5 of the 6 pieces of the straps intended to be used with the Leitz luggage rack available for the B/C cars. The missing strap is the long one intended to stretch side to side with the leather keeper at one end and the pointed end with holes at the other end. It would have been similar to the two ones shown for top to bottom, only longer. While the set for luggage in the rear area is seen from time to time the Leitz luggage strap set is very rare in my experience. I have also attached a picture from the Accessories Catalog (from Charlie White's web site) showing how the straps were used with the Leitz rack. Note that the strap set used with the earlier Reutter racks was only 4 pieces (one top to bottom and one side to side) and the sets had different Accessory Numbers. I will also post another set of Detailed pictures on the Leitz Rack set.
I also have what I believe to be an NOS set of the ski straps but they are at a different location and I haven't photographed them yet. Basically I think they are identical to the ones you show.
Dick Milstead
Dick Milstead
- Richard Milstead
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items
Paul,
Here are some additional pictures of details on the Leitz Luggege Rack Straps. Sorry that a couple are a little fuzzy (blame the camera man). The end configuration around the buckles is basically identical for both the rear luggage straps (Inside) and the Leitz Rack straps (Outside). Dimentionally the Leitz Rack straps are slightly wider.
Dick Milstead
Here are some additional pictures of details on the Leitz Luggege Rack Straps. Sorry that a couple are a little fuzzy (blame the camera man). The end configuration around the buckles is basically identical for both the rear luggage straps (Inside) and the Leitz Rack straps (Outside). Dimentionally the Leitz Rack straps are slightly wider.
Dick Milstead
Dick Milstead
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items
Here's one of a set of red ski straps that I've had forever. At one point they were very dry and stiff. Soaked them in motor oil, and now they are supple and soft.
CW
CW
Charlie White
- Richard Milstead
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items
Paul,
One last thing. I realize that the luggage rack shown in the Accessories catalog picture is not a Leitz rack but a Reutter version. I believe that when the photo shoot was done they just used what was available for the picture. They weren't quite as anal as we are about such things. I have attached a picture (again I believe from Charlie's site) of the Reutter Rack strap set. Obviously 'in the day' you could have used either one if you wanted. Porsche would have been happy to sell you whichever.
Dick Milstead
One last thing. I realize that the luggage rack shown in the Accessories catalog picture is not a Leitz rack but a Reutter version. I believe that when the photo shoot was done they just used what was available for the picture. They weren't quite as anal as we are about such things. I have attached a picture (again I believe from Charlie's site) of the Reutter Rack strap set. Obviously 'in the day' you could have used either one if you wanted. Porsche would have been happy to sell you whichever.
Dick Milstead
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Dick Milstead
- Paul Hatfield
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items
Dick-
Providing pictures of just the buckle and rivet area. To me it looks different that the ones you have posted. Again, the black ones I have posted pictures are my belts, and I "assume" they are luggage straps for the back seat area.
-Paul
Providing pictures of just the buckle and rivet area. To me it looks different that the ones you have posted. Again, the black ones I have posted pictures are my belts, and I "assume" they are luggage straps for the back seat area.
-Paul
Paul Hatfield
"Miss April"
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- Richard Milstead
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items
Paul,
The straps you have could be different and both sets still be original, IMHO, just made in different periods. The ones I have came from the original owner and were purchased in Germany when the car ('65 SC) was picked up at the Factory (or so the story goes!). I note thet the arrangement for attaching the buckle end on yours uses the ring style keeper instead of the second buckle with added strap that is found on my set. How do you attach that to the bracket in the car? If you look at the picture on Charlie's site of original straps from the Accessories Catalog you will see the buckle arrangement like my set. I have also seen a set of supposed originals that replaces the ring keeper on the belt side (one with holes) with a buckle arrangement as well. Your set is of the period I believe and probably made by whomever did these for Porsche because of the telltale whiteish finish on the flesh side of the leather which is partually still intact and visable in your picture. Note the same white finish on the back if the leather in my Leitz strap shots. Remember this type of strap was being sold through Porsche beginning in the early A era through the late C (and beyond).
Dick Milstead
The straps you have could be different and both sets still be original, IMHO, just made in different periods. The ones I have came from the original owner and were purchased in Germany when the car ('65 SC) was picked up at the Factory (or so the story goes!). I note thet the arrangement for attaching the buckle end on yours uses the ring style keeper instead of the second buckle with added strap that is found on my set. How do you attach that to the bracket in the car? If you look at the picture on Charlie's site of original straps from the Accessories Catalog you will see the buckle arrangement like my set. I have also seen a set of supposed originals that replaces the ring keeper on the belt side (one with holes) with a buckle arrangement as well. Your set is of the period I believe and probably made by whomever did these for Porsche because of the telltale whiteish finish on the flesh side of the leather which is partually still intact and visable in your picture. Note the same white finish on the back if the leather in my Leitz strap shots. Remember this type of strap was being sold through Porsche beginning in the early A era through the late C (and beyond).
Dick Milstead
Dick Milstead
- Paul Hatfield
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items
Can't say that I have ever attached them because every time I touch them something else breaks. These are really old and no longer good. The buckle is interesting with it sides curved outward. If one tries, the "D" ring side just passes through the buckle. Not sure if that has anything to do with how they install, but interesting. Going to have to rely on others to tell us how they attached.
I'll say this. The reproduction ones might have great leather and directions on how to use them, but I bet they don't have this special shaped buckle.
Paul
I'll say this. The reproduction ones might have great leather and directions on how to use them, but I bet they don't have this special shaped buckle.
Paul
Paul Hatfield
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items
Reviving this very useful thread. Is there a way to tell original lenses for Hella 128 fog lights from the reproductions? I have heard that reproductions have been in the market for at least 20 years.
I am surprised that Hella wouldn't take steps to prevent this, since its logo is on the lense.
I am surprised that Hella wouldn't take steps to prevent this, since its logo is on the lense.
#6386
- Jim Alton
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items
It's never been 100% clear whether or not Hella actually makes the 128s sold today. Sierra Madre Collection has both expensive lights sold with the Hella Logo in the ad and much less expensive lights sold without the logo.Edwin Ek wrote:Reviving this very useful thread. Is there a way to tell original lenses for Hella 128 fog lights from the reproductions? I have heard that reproductions have been in the market for at least 20 years.
I am surprised that Hella wouldn't take steps to prevent this, since its logo is on the lense.
Maybe the expensive reproductions are licensed by Hella.
When I bought the lights for my '65 911 I recall a guy at Performance Products saying they were made by Hella but they came in that blue and white striped box without Hella's name. Those were well made and I haven't spotted a difference.
All the new Hella 128s have the early "V" lens and Quartz-Halogen H3 bulbs so if you find a set that takes 35 watt tungsten bulbs or has the late lens it must be original.
Jim Alton
Los Angeles County, CA
1958 Porsche 356A Cabriolet
1965 Porsche 911 Coupé
1966 Volkswagen Type 2
2003 Porsche 986 Boxster
- Jim Alton
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items
Well, I found a difference in Hella 128s.
Here's what I presume to be an original Hella 128 from my 911, 301328, delivered 21 June 1965 (the bulb holder's for the 35 W "tungsten" bulb):
Note that the two little brackets that hold the "ears" which engage the screws that hold the bezel and lens in place are welded in.
Here are the circa 1998 foglights now on my 911:
Note that those "ears" are riveted in as are the ears on the one's Sierra Madre Collection sells as Hella Brand:
But! The same applies to the Hella 128's on the 1968 Porsche 912 Targa:
Maybe they changed from welds to rivets because they changed materials. I think the shells may now be stainless steel which might be more challenging to weld,
Here's what I presume to be an original Hella 128 from my 911, 301328, delivered 21 June 1965 (the bulb holder's for the 35 W "tungsten" bulb):
Note that the two little brackets that hold the "ears" which engage the screws that hold the bezel and lens in place are welded in.
Here are the circa 1998 foglights now on my 911:
Note that those "ears" are riveted in as are the ears on the one's Sierra Madre Collection sells as Hella Brand:
But! The same applies to the Hella 128's on the 1968 Porsche 912 Targa:
Maybe they changed from welds to rivets because they changed materials. I think the shells may now be stainless steel which might be more challenging to weld,
Jim Alton
Los Angeles County, CA
1958 Porsche 356A Cabriolet
1965 Porsche 911 Coupé
1966 Volkswagen Type 2
2003 Porsche 986 Boxster
- Jim Alton
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items
Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headlamp#Tungsten-halogen tells us the introduction years for Quartz-Hologen Bulbs:
- H1 (55 W @ 12.0 V, 1550 lumens ±15%) in 1962
- H2 (55 W @ 12.0 V, 1820 lm @ 13.2 V) in 1964
Jim Alton
Los Angeles County, CA
1958 Porsche 356A Cabriolet
1965 Porsche 911 Coupé
1966 Volkswagen Type 2
2003 Porsche 986 Boxster
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items
Jim, thanks for this fantastic research! I am also interested in learning what the situation is with lenses. I spoke to Hella USA, and the fellow there didn't know anything and suggested I get in touch with Hella Germany. I also have a message into Eric Linden, the fellow who is making the nice reproductions now.
#6386
- Jim Alton
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items
Come to think of it, the rivets are kind of far back for the "ears." Maybe the rivets are for an H3 bulb holder instead of the "ears."
Jim Alton
Los Angeles County, CA
1958 Porsche 356A Cabriolet
1965 Porsche 911 Coupé
1966 Volkswagen Type 2
2003 Porsche 986 Boxster
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Re: Difference between Reproduction and Original items
A fellow at German Hella said that the lenses are reproductions as well as the bodies. Now I wonder if there are ways to differentiate original lenses from the reproductions. Eric Linden might know the answer, but I haven't been able to raise him recently.
#6386