356 C Front Turn Signals- USA

[Charlie White]

I would agree that saying all late 356-C's came with amber lenses is probably not factual, however I can accept the notion that some late 356-C's came with amber lenses.

CW

[Bob Kittel]

my 64 SC was manufactured around oct 1963. It was delivered with clear turn signal lenses. The rear lenses were all red. The late Harry Pellow once mentioned that the production number on my car was as low as he had seen for a 64.

[Bruce Baker]

"....Lest we be judged...."

The picture from the Factory of the 'last' 356 to leave was of a Cabriolet...with darker front turn-signal lenses in the B&W picture in many books dealing with Porsche's history, and I interpret that as representing a rich amber.

The moving-margin ad for various parts on the CSP site announces "amber lenses for C turn-signals" and William usually knows his stuff.

The Stoddard catalog lists clear and amber lenses "for B or C." That's a residual of Brad's work while there and he has not participated in this thread (and I have not checked the current NLA site), so maybe there is no easy answer if Brad doesn't know?

Brett says in his "Restorer's Guide to Authenticity" that "US had clear lenses while most other countries had amber lenses," but what's he know beyond 'the books' and contributions from avid enthusiasts and seasoned pros?

Brett's "Pictorial Guide" shows a C with 'Euro' headlights and clear turn-signal lenses, an assumed incongruity...but it's shown as a supposedly worthy example of 'correctness.'

"Excellence was Expected"...often thought of as the 'Bible' of Porsche info... shows 'official' pictures the first C Coupe(s?) to arrive in Teaneck, NJ in '63 with consecutive NJ plates, both with clear t/s lenses, one with no center crests on the plain hubcaps and one with the non-enameled crests. Those pictures could be of the same Coupe that went to John Kent, as he got a lot of added 'extras' on that press car when he purchased it MOS from POA.

That early C got the pre-911 sealed beam headlights, the chromed wheels, the C-2 wood steering wheel, etc ...and eventually the amber turn-signal lenses. A 'clothes horse' for Porsche of America.

So early period pictures of C cars with Euro plates show amber and 'others' are shown with clear lenses. My guess is that a 'Euro' delivery C that found its way to the US had amber lenses and a direct export from P-AG to the US had clear but many were changed due to damage and subsequent availability or owner (or dealer) preference.

BUT, just to add to the confusion, my T-5 B parts book shows 644.631.411.06 as an alternate to the .01 "glass for blinker light, white" as "glass (we know it was plastic) for blinker light, yellow." (I've always heard 'amber.') My T-6 B parts book shows ONLY 'yellow (-.06) glass' as an available part!

Still, the opening post from Paul was about a 'judge' and his finite pronouncement of 'fact' about lens lineage. Those 'judge' types need to teach the rest of us by showing more proof than I was able to uncover or, learn like the rest of us mortals to 'never say never and never say always' when it comes to anything 356.

[John Linden]

Bruce:

Is it possible that the 356 T-5 and T-6 parts books you are gathering information from may have had "updates" applied over the years. I don't know the history of the Porsche parts books, but it would seem that something as dynamic as the overall Porsche parts system would result in updates being published to the parts manuals. That would lead to the question about certainty that the pages you are gathering information from are pages issued at the time the original T-5 and T-6 parts books were published --- or maybe at a later date as the availability of different parts evolved?

Thanks for your thoughtful post on this topic.

John Linden
Alamo, CA
US Spec 63 Cab with white lenses from the factory

[Alex Mestas]

Well said again Bruce. I don't want to confuse this topic further and I recall having this question posed a couple of years ago on the old forum. I would like to think that the official change was made around 1963 to amber. My only rationale for saying this is when I bought my 63 356 T-6 coupe that had a production date of August 1, 1962 from the original owner it had amber lenses. When I bought my car he also gave me a box of misc parts, gasket boxes, scissors jack and Elfink's book along with a pair of clear front turn signal lenses......go figure.     

[Paul Hatfield]

Bruce-
Thanks for your research and informative post. Just so the group knows, I have sent an e-mail to the person who brought this up to me and perhaps he will join in. Also, I have asked Jack Keyes, the original owner of a C Cab if he has any early pictures of his car, which he took delivery of here in the State of Washington when he graduated from college. Jack said the picture he is thinking of is in Arizona, and he is up here in Washington right now, so it will be a while before he can dig it up. Still, that is only one car.
The fact remains there were two types available for installation on the C cars- clear and yellow/amber. I think we mostly agree that on the B cars, the yellow/amber is associated with the European delivery cars, and clear with the USA delivery cars.
Then come the C's. Even dealers could have changed out clear lens on a new C car to make a customer happy or to make the car look more "modern". Therefore, even in the case of a car like Jacks, we don't really know how it left the factory. I guess pictures from Christophorus or some other factory photos would really help.

Thanks for all the great input on this.

Paul

[Charlie White]

John Linden brings up a good point. Parts books ARE updated periodically. New pages are dated usually on the lower right of the part number/description pages. I previously posted in this thread B T-5 & T-6 info on front turn signal lights. My T-6 parts book does contain updated pages, some as late as April 1965, however the page describing the front turn signals is not an updated page but is original to the parts book dated January 1960.

Bruce, what a thoughtful commment.

Lastly, I posted the following comment (rant) recently in another thread in which Bruce also commented. It seems appropriate to post it again.

"I've been accused on several occassions of looking too hard at the "books" with regard to what's what with 356 Porsches. There's one thing that Bruce mentioned that you should keep in mind when your talking 356 Porsches. Never say Never! And Never say Always! When talking authenticity, I have a hard time accepting the comment often heard when talking what's original and what's not.....Well, I'm the second owner, and the first owner told me the car is absolutely all original, or some such comment. Or even a first and original owner saying my car is absolutly original and that's the way it came from the factory. Even in those circumstances there are situations that might have occurred before ownership that could have changed something on the car.....like the dealer, for example. And I have a problem with "memories", and well that's how I remember it. Not good enough! Memories fade, and can be too erroneous for absolutes. And the I've seen it/done it that way a thousand times, so it must be so. Well, that's only one thousand out of many thousands. The odds are against you in that train of thought. That's why I like the "books", workshop manuals, parts books, service bulletins, and the like. At least it was that way at some point as per the factory's own written word. Yes, it could and probably did change, at the factory, and later, for lots of reasons. And I have a hard time with the comment that well, the factory manuals are full of lots of errors. The Germans are and always have been a pretty diciplined and detail oriented people, hard to accept that the "books" have lots of errors. I'm sure there are some! Now I respect those that have large amounts of experience with 356's who feel they know these cars, but even they have to accept that memories fade, and the universe that they saw is only a small part of the total universe. So we're back to Never say Never, and Never say Always! That lesson seems more and more obvious as it relates to 356 Porsches."

CW

[Bruce Baker]

Bruce:

Is it possible that the 356 T-5 and T-6 parts books you are gathering information from may have had "updates" applied over the years. I don't know the history of the Porsche parts books, but it would seem that something as dynamic as the overall Porsche parts system would result in updates being published to the parts manuals. That would lead to the question about certainty that the pages you are gathering information from are pages issued at the time the original T-5 and T-6 parts books were published --- or maybe at a later date as the availability of different parts evolved?

Thanks for your thoughtful post on this topic.

John Linden
Alamo, CA
US Spec 63 Cab with white lenses from the factory

My T-6B (original) parts book was published ...."Ausgabe Januar 1960" but on the same cover page it is also showing "Ausgegeben September 1961"

Section 9/3A, item #14 is 644.631.411.06 "Glass, yellow. for side and blinker light."
The date of that page's printing was; VI 9/63.....and of course, my C manual, like others, unfortunately does not show anything changing from that information on that particular part.

I checked the T-6B pages in that section and the dates vary considerably one to another.

I was gifted those many parts and shop books by Jack Heron in the early '70s, but used them in his shop prior to that while apprenticing in the '60s. They are full of smudges and pencil notes, rust images of paper clips that once held temporary notes of changes and obviously had updates.

I am no scholar of the literature, just an appreciative user of 'the Books' all my career, often using an Elfrink (or others) to find something smaller/faster. I add to; "I don't know everything about a 356" the words; "but I usually know where to look it up or who to call."

After this thread, if a 'judge' took away points for either lens option at a serious Concours, well, where did his information come from, what have we missed?

Thanks,
Bruce

[Charlie White]

I have judged in many PCA Parade, Registry Holiday and Regional PCA concour events over the years. And without denigrating any of those fine folks who volunteer to do this kind of a job at these events, it became clear to me many years ago that many of those concours judges, including myself, didn't know many of the fine points about 356 Porsches that are routinely discussed almost on a daily basis in this Forum.

CW

[Pat Daily]

Sort of like judging a horse show! Just think how much more fun it is to drive the car.

[Jim Breazeale]

Question:

What is the easiest way to change the appearance of the front of a 356B/C?
Yup, you guessed it.
Change the factory supplied white turnsignal lenses to amber ones (much better looking, IMHO). It only takes a few seconds and no tools are required. It does make a noticeable difference, too.

Regards

[Pat Daily]

Jim

I did that on mine years ago. I think they are more visible to oncoming traffic too.

[Charlie White]

Ditto that, Jim, here's my 61 Roadster, picture taken in about 1963.

CW

[Jim Breazeale]

More things to muddy the water.

The Original 356B parts manual lists the turnsignal assy as PN: 644.631.401.05 (left) and 402.05 (right). there is no mention of the color of the lens in the description, although, It does say the part is complete with lens and clamping device. One can only assume that the lens was white. The white lenses and the yellow lenses are listed separately.
The 356B parts manual suppliment (T6) lists a separate number for turnsignals with a "yellow" lens. That PN is 644.631.402.06 (right) and 401.06 (left)
the 356C suppliment does not mention anything about turnsignals because there were not any changes from the earlier manuals.

I have a bunch of the turnsignal assys PN: 644.631.401.06 in stock. these are replacement units probably manufactured in the early 80s. They have yellow lenses and do not have a bulb socket installed for the "running light". They also do not have any "SWFK" numbers on the upper side of the housing, either.

I am under the impression that the "running light" on cars delivered outside of the US was the lower part of the headlight bucket, not in the turnsignal housing, like the US cars. Some of our European friends could chime in on that detail. By the way, if you have a sealed beam headlight assy in your 356C (Cars delivered in the US) and it has the small bulb in the headlight bucket between the glass and the bulb, you have a replacement VW unit.

Bottom line (My observation) 356C did not, I repeat, did not come with "yellow" lenses, there may be a very few exceptions, though.

Regards

[Paul Hatfield]

Posting for Jack Keyes, original owner of his 356 C Cabriolet and a good friend of mine.
Quote: "Paul -
I have located the picture of my car taken in June '65. While not totally definitive it appears that the lens are white. It is an old print and the negative is long gone so I can not effectively enlarge.
So, the debate goes on!
Jack"
Jacks car was purchased by him new in Seattle, Washington at Metro Motors.
Thanks,
Paul