Originality and Language

[Paul Hatfield]

Thought I’d write a note about language used when speaking of originality. I find the word “original” used very loosely and perhaps we can get some agreement for the commonly used words describing parts and processes that might be thought “original”.

Firstly, the word original should be a part that came on a 356 car (or still in the box) and has not been modified or changed out. Period.

Perhaps the words “as original” could be used for a replacement part or a restored original part. Example: An original part that has been replated with the correct/original plating process is an original part but not in it’s original condition anymore. Perhaps it should then be an original part restored to “as original”. Other replacement parts could also be “as original”.
The term OEM has been defined before as Original Equipment Manufacturer. It has only one meaning in terms of originality- That it is the same manufacturer. It could be completely different than the original part though.
NOS, or New Old Stock has the same issue as the description OEM. It is an unused old part, but that does not make it OEM and does not make it the same as the original part or even “as original”
Group comments on the above are encouraged.

[Roy Lock]

There certainly needs to be discussion on this subject.
Porsche is as big a culprit and adds to the confusion. Today, you can walk into a Porsche Dealership and buy 356 parts. They come with Porsche part tags straight from the factory, well almost. However in many cases, the factory buys re made parts from the same sources as our favorite 356 vendors with the same end result when we use them.
Additionally, OEM suppliers, such as Hella, Bosch, and VDO, also sold the same parts on the open market in the era. So, are those NOS? Are they original? Are they OEM? What would you call them? They are exact in every detail, except the markings on the box they came in. If you took them out of the box, they COULD be NOS/original.
How about aftermarket parts installed by dealers such as LL, Nardi, Derrington steering wheels? If still in a box, would they be NOS or original?
Do they miss lead the uninitiated? How would we know? It is almost certain that the original stock pile of parts made in the era have been exhausted. The factory did not squirrel away parts knowing there would be a demand 45-50 years in the future. If you believe that, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
To the unaware seller and buyer, how do we establish those standards for nomenclature?

[Jim Breazeale]

Paul

I use the term "NOS" to describe a part that was made "back in the day" by the OEM and has been sitting around on a shelf ever since. A NOS replacement SWF taillight assembly, for example, that was manufactured in the 80's as a replacement for the original taillights is not NOS in my opinion. Yes, it is old. Yes it is new, but it is not the same part as the original one, thus not NOS. The original has bullet connectors for the wires and the replacements have screw connections for the wires. It is a thin line. It all boils down to understanding what you are buying. "NOS" seems to take on a different meaning by many sellers on the internet.

Regards

[Paul Hatfield]

Jim-
I agree with your post completely.
Still, by what conventional thinking is, NOS is New Old Stock.
So, my comment is that NOS does not guarantee it is "as original". It may or it may not be.
Paul

[Barry Brisco]

Roy Smalley and I wrote an article that relates to this discussion, it's at http://porsche356registry.org/resources ... m-nib.html

When describing 356 car parts, a variety of acronyms are tossed around, frequently without defining them, resulting in a great deal of confusion for newcomers and old-timers alike. This is an attempt to clarify the generally accepted meanings of "OEM", "NOS", "NIB".

OEM: "Original Equipment Manufacture", sometimes shortened to "OE". Most members of the 356 enthusiast community would agree that "original" implies the part in question was manufactured and intended for use in a specific 356 model, by Porsche or one of their licensees. Sometimes the part was only used by Porsche, though sometimes it was also used by other auto manufacturers (for example, the K2665 and K12627 front turn signal units used on the 356B and C were also used by Mercedes on the 190SL). OEM parts would include inventory overages as well as identical specification inventory manufactured to be use on subsequently produced automobiles and to provide replacements during the initial inventory supply cycle.

However, after those inventories were depleted, an original manufacturer or an original licensee or a new licensee would build parts for OEM inventory that may or may not be identical to the initial run, yet functionally and cosmetically indistinguishable, and that is the point at which the term "original" becomes muddled.

Additional confusion occurs because often parts were made for use as replacements after the production of a 356 model ended, but were made to different specifications! An example is the A/B fuel tank cap. Porsche sold replacements for that cap long after 356 production ended and the replacement part looked quite different from the version that new 356A and B owners received with their "right off the showroom floor" cars. But to Porsche, the cap was the same part with the same part number.

In any case, it seems reasonable to say that the later part is not "original" since it was not produced during the time the car was being produced, nor was it manufactured to the "original" specifications for that part. It could be from the OEM, but not as originally delivered, and by definition would be a post-production part. In other words, it represents inventory manufactured after the "original" part inventory was depleted. This is a key distinction between original and everything else, as that part was not available during the initial manufacturing phase. So how could it be "original"? It was not the same nor was it made during the initial phase of manufacturing of the vehicle for which it was intended.

NOS: "New Old Stock" is generally accepted to mean parts produced during the initial production run (when the 356 was a "new" car, from 1949 to 1965) and that have never been used on a car, therefore they appear "new", or at least as new as a 50-year old part can look. They would certainly be "original" as well. This term can be used incorrectly when applied to new looking parts that were actually made after th 356 was out of production, but some would argue that any replacement 356 part sold by Porsche in unused condition can be called "NOS".

Regardless, parts made during or after 356 production by companies other than Porsche or one of their licensees, even if they could be used as replacement parts on a 356 but were not used by Porsche when the cars were new are not "original" nor are they OEM.

NIB: "New in Box" is a term that has very little value, but we include it here because sometimes it is used by part sellers (often those on ebay) as a way to try to add value to a part. It can only mean exactly what it says: that the part is unused and in the box provided by the manufacturer. It does not mean the part is OEM or NOS.

To sum up:

Original: as produced for inventory during the model year or to use in identical specification support inventories .
NOS: an original part that has never been used on a car.
Not original: everything else, which could be subjected to any number of definitions depending upon source and quality, claims and expectations.

[Paul Hatfield]

Barry-
The article is very nicely done and helps.
However, as you point out in the article, the term NOS does not help us with the word "original"- unless you use Jim's definition, and sadly the rest of the world really does not.

So, if OEM and NOS doesn't necessarily mean original, we have to better define.

Even an original part may not be "as original" anymore because of time, rust, wear, restoration, or damage.

I am sure others will chime in.
Paul

[Roy Lock]

Roy Smalley and I wrote an article that relates to this discussion, it's at http://porsche356registry.org/resources ... m-nib.html

Additional confusion occurs because often parts were made for use as replacements after the production of a 356 model ended, but were made to different specifications! An example is the A/B fuel tank cap. Porsche sold replacements for that cap long after 356 production ended and the replacement part looked quite different from the version that new 356A and B owners received with their "right off the showroom floor" cars. But to Porsche, the cap was the same part with the same part number."

"Original: as produced for inventory during the model year or to use in identical specification support inventories ."

Which brings us to another grey area. What about superceded parts? There were parts superceded mid production cycle and noted in the Parts Catalogs with appropriate annotations. Would the "new" part be NOS? Both could be used and both are period correct, egro NOS?

[Barry Brisco]

Paul, you're right that article did not attempt to define "original": it's used so many different ways. I prefer OEM: "Original Equipment Manufacture.

Best regards,

Barry

Barry-
The article is very nicely done and helps.
However, as you point out in the article, the term NOS does not help us with the word "original"- unless you use Jim's definition, and sadly the rest of the world really does not.

So, if OEM and NOS doesn't necessarily mean original, we have to better define.

Even an original part may not be "as original" anymore because of time, rust, wear, restoration, or damage.

[Jim Breazeale]

Roy

I don't think "superceded" parts are much to worry about with our 356s. Porsche learned that trick later on. A good rule of thumb to use is if you pruchase a part that has a superceded number be aware that you are buying a part that may be very different from the one you are replacing and it may not bear a remote resemblance to the part is is supposed to replace. Superceded parts drive the 911 crowd nuts! Purchase an alternator from a factory authorized dealer for your pre 1982 911 and you will get an alternator that has a built-in regulator and requires modification of the cooling ducts on the engine and requires a rewiring of the harness going to the engine, not a project that should be undertaken by the average weekend tinkerer. You are told to just make it work. Another example of a superceded part is the window regulators for mid 70s 911s. Again you are sold a regulator that looks like it could have come out of a Honda. You have to buy a new window channel and drill a bunch of holes in your door to make it work. They charge you a bunch more money for the privelege of reengineering your car, too boot! I think they were more forthright back in the 60s. If they ran out of a part and had no plans to make it anymore they just told you that the part was not available. If our cars just lasted for a few years and were thrown away, we would not be having this conversation.

Regards

[Paul Hatfield]

Barry-
I think we agree on OEM. It is Original Equipment Manufacturer.
But,,,, so what!
Let's say the OEM is Bosch and a part being discussed is made by Bosch. Then it is OEM. But,, that does not mean it is a part that is exactly as originally used on 356's. I know you are aware of this, but I am using it to try and make a point. That OEM and NOS will not be adequate in describing a part that is original. OEM is like the ante to play in this. It needs to be OEM but also the same as provided back in the 356 era and on 356 cars- "as original".

NOS meaning new old stock doesn't mean back in the 356 era. Old could be the 1980's so some.

I don't pretend to have an answer how to describe the parts correctly, but perhaps with some discussion here we can some up with something?

[Bruce Baker]

Sorry to butt in......

I can't wait until the definitions of "restoration" and "reproduction" are nailed down.....(at least those words can be found in an English dictionary as a clear starting point for those who wish to 'elaborate' with regard to 356 parts or cars).

After that, go for the German "Jungfrau." (As in: "After 60 years, or even 45, it is a challenge to find a Jungfrau 356.")

Truthfully, if efforts are made to replicate parts just like those on a 356 when new.. I don't want to agonize over the semantics of "OEM" or "NOS" or "original," I want to think - "GOOD counterfeit."

Also, I'm glad to see someone else commenting on the reboxing of repro Chinese-or-elsewhere-made 356 parts with an 'official' Porsche parts label announcing "made in Germany." And charging MORE for that! (Maybe Porsche will put their sticker on OEM NOS original fiberglass Speedster bodies to give them more credibility?)(I think if any 'corner' is safe in which to say something like that, it's here.)

[Adam Wright]

There was an interesting discussion on Pelican about this same thing. They were selling 911 tailights, repro or Bosch, they Bosch were about twice as much, and came in a plain white box.

The discussion is here:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche- ... ctics.html

There are a lot of the same questions and answers discussed.

[Mike Horton]

When I bought my '57 A T1 Normal coupe, in June '64, it had just been rolled once to get it into my price range. As a fresh high school grad, on the way to College in the Fall, I quickly learned that for parts, I could go to the local Dealer, where I could buy parts, like a new LF fender, top, Amco luggage rack, those wonderful 1/2" offset German made chrome wheels (wish I had those back), buy used from the service manager, a Speedster racer (he later sold it to Al Zim), or whatever could be made to work from a small after market. I ordered Coco mats from J.C. Whitney, and a VW short shift kit from them as well, which I made work, and cheap, aftermarket "baby moon" hubcaps, from who knows where. My old high school buddy brought me back from Germany, a Talbot mirror for the left door, and the car came with an Abarth muffler. None of the girls I took for rides around the Texas Tech campus had a clue whether the parts were OEM, NIB, used, out the back door (OTBD) at the dealership, or fake repros. They all assumed that every one gawking at the only fully decked out Corvette Yellow 356 Porsche on that campus, in Lubbock, Tx., was staring in awe at their beauty.
My point? Whatever the source, we, the addicted, are blessed with many more choices now, from far more professional vendors, than "back in the day". For those of us more taken with true originality than others, we can go to whatever extremes we choose to make our pets as original as we can. So. will I use that Abarth muffler I have hanging in the barn, or those + .040 Mahle 356C P/C I've had so long, or that last new Japanese big bore set? Perhaps. Will I change out the 022 distributor I re-built for my '68 912, which runs so well? No. I am grateful to Zim's, as I can order parts, and they come to me overnight on standard ground freight. Jims' crew has been more than helpful in sourcing new & used parts I needed with true customer service, which is no longer assumed at Sears. I am very glad we have so many professionals to help us with our needs, as I doubt I can find much for my Porsches these days from Whitney. BTW, I still have the well worn Elfrink manual I bought from them for about $3.95 + shipping... I'd never be in this hobby today without it! It's been a FUN 46+ years...so far...
Mike Horton (356, 912, 914 2L)
almost isolated in the West Texas Panhandle

[Wil Mittelbach]

Some additional thoughts - -

An acquired NOS or used original part perhaps may not be considered original to the car, relative to the original part that came with the car as installed by factory Porsche.
As such, it could be considered a replacement duplicating the car's original part - -irrespective of the part's date code relative to the car.

A newer OEM "original" part is not neccessarily the same as the original OEM part. E.g., OEM's GIMETALL GETEFO newer trans/motor mounts are somewhat thinner than their Porshe factory originals, resulting in engine sag.
- Wil

[Barry Brisco]

Paul, I don't think it is possible to come up with a definition of "original" that is consistent and will be generally accepted: the term is too broad. That is why I prefer to focus on defining what specific terms such OEM, NOS, and NIB mean. If we can agree on those terms, and use them consistently, we will be able to communicate more effectively.

Barry

Barry-
I think we agree on OEM. It is Original Equipment Manufacturer.
But,,,, so what!
Let's say the OEM is Bosch and a part being discussed is made by Bosch. Then it is OEM. But,, that does not mean it is a part that is exactly as originally used on 356's. I know you are aware of this, but I am using it to try and make a point. That OEM and NOS will not be adequate in describing a part that is original. OEM is like the ante to play in this. It needs to be OEM but also the same as provided back in the 356 era and on 356 cars- "as original".
NOS meaning new old stock doesn't mean back in the 356 era. Old could be the 1980's so some.