Originality and Language

For those who obsess about exactly how their 356 left the factory!
Message
Author
User avatar
Alex Mestas
356 Fan
Posts: 1128
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:02 pm
Tag: It’s only a hobby.
Location: Southern California

Re: Originality and Language

#16 Post by Alex Mestas »

Hi guys
Are we over thinking the definition of NOS? Perhaps just calling NOS replacement parts "NOS-RP". It would work to define a new old stock part being made today.
1963 356 T-6 Coupe Signal Red.
1973.5 911 T Coupe Ivory.
1989 911 Carrera Targa Grd Prix White.

User avatar
Sterling Vaden
356 Fan
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:32 pm
Tag: Where is everybody going?
Location: North Cackalacky
Contact:

Re: Originality and Language

#17 Post by Sterling Vaden »

NOS - New Old Stock

A part in original box or with original part sticker attached. It is new, i.e. unused. It is old, i.e. it has been sitting on a shelf somewhere for many years. How old is old? This is undefined. It is stock. In this case stock just means that it was on a shelf or available from "stock" or inventory. It does not imply that the part was "stock" or unmodified from a part that was originally used for some application. The buyer is obliged to determine the suitability for his application by reference to the part number, pictures, or other identifying information.

OEM - Original Equipment Manufacture

A part made by the original supplier of the part to the automobile manufacturer. The part may be made by the auto manufacturer in house, or it may be made by one of the original contractors to the auto manufacturer. In the example of Porsche; Lemmerz, Hella, Bosch, Fuchs, Kolbenshmidt, Mahle, etc. are all OEM suppliers to Porsche. A part, made by one of these manufacturers is OEM for Porsche. Again, as in NOS, this does not guarantee that the part is a suitable replacement part. The buyer must determine suitability by reference to part numbers, pictures, dimensions, and/or other identifying information.

Original - The parts originally found on a particular car. Once a part is replaced, it is no longer original. Period. New tires are not original tires. New spark plugs are not original spark plugs, A NOS hood emblem is not the original hood emblem.
SV
356*D = 912
http://picasaweb.google.com/456311

User avatar
Paul Hatfield
356 Registry Member
Posts: 1149
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:46 pm
Location: Washington State
Contact:

Re: Originality and Language

#18 Post by Paul Hatfield »

Well said Sterling.
Paul
Paul Hatfield
"Miss April"
http://www.enginesinback.com

User avatar
Barry Brisco
356 Fan
Posts: 3977
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:41 pm
Tag: Porsche enthusiast
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Originality and Language

#19 Post by Barry Brisco »

Sterling, I agree with your NOS and OEM definitions, I think they are essentially the same as what Roy Smalley and I wrote.

Your definition of "original" is quite restrictive and in my opinion more stringent than the way almost everyone uses the term (which I admit is often used in an rather lax manner). Under your definition, if an "original" spark plug that was installed in a 356 engine when it was on the assembly line in Stuttgart in 1960 is replaced with a unused plug made by the same manufacturer with the same part number and specifications and even made in the same year as the plug it replaces, that replacement plug is no longer "original", nor is it "original" to any 356.

Under your definition there are no 100% "original" 356s in existence. So while I think your definition has the advantage of clarity and simplicity, it lacks utility. I would call the replacement plug I describe above as an "original" plug, just as I would call a 50 year old OEM hood handle "original" even if it is not the exact same hood handle as was installed on the car by Reutter when it was new.

We have come to the point of discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. ;-) All in good fun though!

Best regards,

Barry
Sterling Vaden wrote:Original - The parts originally found on a particular car. Once a part is replaced, it is no longer original. Period. New tires are not original tires. New spark plugs are not original spark plugs, A NOS hood emblem is not the original hood emblem.

User avatar
Sterling Vaden
356 Fan
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:32 pm
Tag: Where is everybody going?
Location: North Cackalacky
Contact:

Re: Originality and Language

#20 Post by Sterling Vaden »

Barry Brisco wrote:Under your definition there are no 100% "original" 356s in existence.
Well this is exactly my point.

People want to say that their car is "original" for many reasons. We want to have a definition of what that means. A truly "original" car would be "all original except for normal maintenance items". People understand that.

On the other hand, if one says "That car is all original" and you question "Are the tires original?" No. "Is the paint original?" Well, most of it... "Is the hood handle original?" No, but it is just like one that would have been installed on the car during that year model of production... "Are you sure?" Well everyone seems to agree... "So what else isn't original?"

You get my drift.

My position is that a car cannot be "restored" to original. Original is the way it left the dealer showroom or factory shipper.

People use all kinds of euphemisms to justify their hobbies, but who are they fooling?
SV
356*D = 912
http://picasaweb.google.com/456311

User avatar
Paul Kust
356 Fan
Posts: 289
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 12:58 pm
Location: Vancouver,Washington

Re: Originality and Language

#21 Post by Paul Kust »

Sterling Vaden wrote:
Barry Brisco wrote:Under your definition there are no 100% "original" 356s in existence.
Well this is exactly my point.

People want to say that their car is "original" for many reasons. We want to have a definition of what that means.
A truly "original" car would be "all original except for normal maintenance items". People understand that.

My position is that a car cannot be "restored" to original. Original is the way it left the dealer showroom or factory shipper.
I agree that there are very few ORIGINAL cars.

But the term that you might be looking for is "restored to AS ORIGINAL"

Anything that is restored or replaced is no longer original.
Paul Kust
'57 T-1 101611

Guest

Re: Originality and Language

#22 Post by Guest »

Ok, I'm coming out from under my rock on this one. A car, any car including our 356's are only original once including the sum of ALL IT"S ORIGINAL PARTS...period. If you restore your 356 with all it's original parts it's still not original...It's restored. There are original OEM parts...but not original to your car. NOS are not original OEM parts (slippery slope here) ..they could be original OEM parts and if so then they are not NOS.

Back under My Rock I go 8)
Bob Lee
356 Registry member 16135
Porsche 356 Club member
912 Registry member

User avatar
Barry Brisco
356 Fan
Posts: 3977
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:41 pm
Tag: Porsche enthusiast
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Originality and Language

#23 Post by Barry Brisco »

Paul Kust wrote:Anything that is restored or replaced is no longer original.
Hmm...so if I have a part on my car that has been there since the car came off the assembly line, and it has always been on the car, it is "original". But if I "restore" it by cleaning some rust and grime off it is "not original"? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Bob wrote; "any car including our 356's are only original once" and Sterling wrote; "Original is the way it left the dealer showroom or factory shipper."

So they seem to be saying that there are no "original" 356s in existence, since the last one was made in early 1966 and obviously none of them now can possibly be exactly the way they were when they were brand new. They've all aged and they've all been driven thousands or often hundreds of thousand of miles. And by their definition, even cars made this year are no longer "original" once they've been driven by their first owners for a few miles.

Guys, your definitions of the word "original" as applied to the 356 aren't very useful, since in your view the word does not apply to any 356 now in existence. I'm going to stay with with a more common usage, such as; "The engine in my car is original because the engine case shows the same number as shown on the COA for the car". Or; "The hood is original because it's stamped with the same last 3 numbers as the chassis number."

Best regards,
Barry Brisco
1959 356A Coupe 105553, Ivory / Brown
2009 987 Cayman, Carrera White / Beige (daily driver)

Guest

Re: Originality and Language

#24 Post by Guest »

Berry,
I did not write that a car (356) was no longer original because of it's mileage, age or because it smiply left the dealer or shipper...you did?? I know of only a hand full of Porsches that are truly "Original" due to the fact that they have less than 1500 original miles, but are over fourty years old, they still have German air in the tires. The fact is the term "It's Original" is loosely used and is usually defined to that particular car, original motor, trans,( matching numbers) what ever. There still only original once even if their fifty years old and have been driven with all their original parts including their tires.

We have beaten this dead horse enough :?
Bob

User avatar
tyler carlson
356 Fan
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:03 am

Re: Originality and Language

#25 Post by tyler carlson »

Paul-we are talking about OEM and NOS and it is funny you mention 'an original part may not be original due to rust-wear-corrosion...' That brings another great over-used word into this forum thread...'patina'-don't you just love that one!
 

Post Reply