Headlight Glass Seal

[Paul Hatfield]

Gents-
My headlights are original to my car- a 65 C coupe. I believe I still have the original headlight glass lens seal, part number 644-631-114-00. To be clear, this is the seal that goes around the glass lens, not the headlight assembly to fender seal.
Mine originals are now falling apart and like swiss cheese. Again, please note my car is a C so not saying all cars have the same seal, but mine are cream colored. Reproduction seals are black or gray, but I can't find any in the original color.
At the WCH one person offered an NOS one to me. It is also cream colored. I still need another.
Does anyone know a source for these in the original color?

[Jim Breazeale]

Paul

That seal is completely hidden from view. What difference does it make? If you change the seal it is not "original" anyway.

Regards

[Paul Hatfield]

Teasing is accepted.
Still, I always try to get original OEM parts even if they don't show & even if they are inferior to modern replacement parts. Example: On my accelerator linkage, I use the rubber connector without a shroud, even though the new ones with a shroud provide a safety net. I would rather have an original type part without the shroud and have to pull over if it broke and wire something together to limp home. However, that won't happen to me because I inspect it often when I have it up on the lift at home.
I also am dedicated to solid axle boots instead of split ones. No one ever sees them except the owner, but as teased above, I guess I sleep better knowing I am doing things as original.
Silly? Probably it is. But, it is a hobby and I enjoy it.
By the way, my old original Swiss cheese seal is now showing because it has pulled away from the headlight glass and into view.

[Jim Breazeale]

Paul

Please post a picture of your headlight assy. Where are the adjusting screws? Are you positive that they are the headlights that came with your car? In the years that I have been involved with 356s, I see many more cars with replacement headlights than ones that I can determine are "original" and came with the car when it left the factory. The headlights that are in my 65 C ,Karmann built, coupe have black seals.
The headlights are the original ones ( WAG) and have never ( SWAG) been apart or "restored".

Regards

[Paul Hatfield]

Jim-
OK, whole story fits best here.
I am owner number 3.
Previous owner of 29 years could not do anything. I have receipts for his mechanic changing things like the bulb in the brake light. He himself did nothing. Car overall is quite original.
OK, now headlights. I can't prove all the components are original. That is impossible.
But, see the first paragraph, he did zilch.
The headlights have the correct date code to match my car. See my article in the current issue of the Registry magazine- "Dating Miss June". The date code is A 27 which is the 27th week of 1964. My car is a 65 model.
The only other headlight photo I have up close is also below. Screws at what I call 1 and 7. There are two rivets at the securing tab. This configuration matches what I have seen on the very few original owner 356 C cars I have inspected. Other years as you know are different.
So, my conclusion is that the headlight assemblies are surely original. No other way to get a date code to blend in so well with the other ones on the car. Again see the article.
Is the seal original? Who knows. I only know it is now like swiss cheese with holes and quite old.
Paul

[Jim Breazeale]

Paul

My headlight looks just like yours. It has all the same markings except it says (B3). I don't have your excellent article about date stamps infront of me so I don't know how to decode the date stamp. My car was made fairly late in the production of 65 356Cs. Perhaps you could let me know is my date stamp is consistent with the date of production of my car. I must admit to not paying a bunch of attention to the seals in headlight assys, but do recall most of them being black. The other headlight assy in my car is coded (B 11) and has just one rivet holding the on the tab. I suppose that one could have been replaced very early on. I told you I wasn't paying much attention! I never noticed that before.

Regards

[Paul Hatfield]

A is 1964
B stands for 1965
The next digits are the month. B3 is March of 1965. B11 is November of 1965.
Paul

[Jim Breazeale]

Paul

Thanks for the explanation. It looks like I have one original one and one that was replaced very early on in the cars existance. Just as I suspected.

Regards

[Jim Breazeale]

A is 1964
B stands for 1965
The next digits are the month. B3 is March of 1965. B11 is November of 1965.
Paul

Paul

Wait a minute......Do you mean the numbers are the week and not the month? If they are weeks instead of months, then both of mine could have been delivered with the car. Your headlight is made in the 27th week of 1964. Did they change the date coding from weeks to months for 1965?

Regards

Jim

[Paul Hatfield]

My mistake. Wrote the reply to quickly.
numbers are the week.
Paul

[Bruce Baker]

Excuse me for breaking in to a personal conversation, but this reminds me of the old Saturday Night Live skit where there was a faux sales argument over whether a product was a dessert topping or a floor wax and it was decided that both sides were correct!

Most 'original' 356 headlamps I've disassembled have had black glass lens seals, most VW units have had the creamy-colored version.

Also, as time goes on, two things happen in topics like this; interest gets terribly more profound about details and memories fade as we age. In my relatively brief time of really paying attention to these trivial details, much of the 'absolute originality' has been lost. I am of the '65>'90 phase of 356-git-er-done guys. "Black? White? Just gimme a got-dam seal so's I can get this 356 back on the road!"

What we have also learned is that we expect complete predictability where none should be expected, especially with regard to parts. One of the charming things about low-production cars is the individuality of each and the manufacturer's ability to subtly 'improvise, overcome and adapt' during build and assembly.

Topics arise about doors with a different number stamped on them than the chassis VIN and then crossed off with crayon and the 'matching' VIN written in bold Teutonic script. Foglight switches here and there of different types but fogs mentioned on the Kardex. Etc, etc, etc.

Therefore, both Jim and Paul should be able to sleep well...as either black or white (turned tan) or even gray seals (that usually can't be seen when properly installed) COULD have been used by Hella or Bosch due to their vendor's supply.....as the reverse trip goes whispering down the lane.

(And what about the cars leaving Zuffenhausen with NO headlights, to be dealer installed prior to delivery in a country with a different idea of lighting requirements? An added dimension......)

[Alex Mestas]

Hi Paul:

First; THANK YOU for that great article "Dating Miss June". Contrary to what some people may think there are a lot of us out here that enjoy the minutia of the details. Like you said, it's a hobby for most of us, and we have a tremendous advantage of having such knowledgeable experts who know the wherefores of the details and whom we rely on to teach us those details. I like the idea of having the Authenticity Corner where we can get answers to otherwise boring details. Great place to ask without being ridiculed for merely asking. It's also fun to try and discover if there was predictability in production as Bruce mentioned. That's the fun of having these discussions.

For example I am the 2nd owner of a 1963 T-6 Karmann Coupe with production date August 1, 1962. My Hella headlights which are both marked identically would indicate W=1961 and 3= the 3rd week of the year, is that correct? Is it conceivable that they were using stock dated 1961? What do others have?

[Paul Hatfield]

Thanks Alex-
Yes, this section is not likely to impress the "drive 'em" crowd, but there are some members who like to try and figure out what was original to their car. Sometimes we will figure it out, perhaps sometimes not.
Glad you liked the article.
Oh, and yes, you have correctly figured out the date of manufacture of your headlights.
Paul