Roadster / Convertible "D" top frames?? Similiar?

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charles kourmpates

Roadster / Convertible "D" top frames?? Similiar?

#1 Post by charles kourmpates »

Could someone explain, in detail, the differences or the similarities between the convertible top frames, of the Roadster and the Convertible D?

Are they the same, that is, Identical? Will they fit, from the "D" to the Roadster?

I've been patiently waiting for a "D" to show up at the upholster's so I can send my frame to be fitted for a top.

They have a Roadster. I was wondering if the Roadster would work with my frame?

I do need to get my top completed.

Charles

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Barry Brisco
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Re: Roadster / Convertible "D" top frames?? Simili

#2 Post by Barry Brisco »

charles kourmpates wrote:Could someone explain, in detail, the differences or the similarities between the convertible top frames, of the Roadster and the Convertible D?
Brett Johnson's Authenticity book describes the differences. It's an essential book for anyone restoring a 356.

The D top was the same as the early Roadster tops. Around Roadster 87825 the latches and guide pins were changed slightly.
Barry Brisco
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charles kourmpates

Re: Roadster / Convertible "D" top frames?? Simili

#3 Post by charles kourmpates »

Barry Brisco wrote:
Brett Johnson's Authenticity book describes the differences. It's an essential book for anyone restoring a 356.
Around Roadster 87825 the latches and guide pins were changed slightly.
Yes, good advice Dr. Brett's book, and a nice book it is.

However, I was hoping to hear from someone who actually placed a Roadster top on a "D" or the other way around.

I'm looking for documented first hand experience with these top bows. Supposedly identical?

Keep in mind the windshield frame. I'm told it's different from the "D". Or at least the windshield is.

Also the rear cowl area. Is this identical to that of the "D". Does the fabric top attach the same way as the "D" on the Roadster?

Charles

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Re: Roadster / Convertible "D" top frames?? Simili

#4 Post by Barry Brisco »

charles kourmpates wrote: Keep in mind the windshield frame. I'm told it's different from the "D". Or at least the windshield is.
It is my understanding that the D windshield frame is identical to the early Roadster windshield frames. So I don't know why the windshield glass would be different in shape between the D and the early Roadsters.

The rear cowl sheet metal is probably different since the D is a T2 car and the first Roadsters were T5 cars. But the mounting points for the top frame were probably positioned in the T5 car to accept the top frame used on the D.
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#5 Post by Dale H Moody »

In my opinion: The cowl is definitely a different contour between the D and Rdstr. and this is generally where the difficulty comes in trying to
fit the one-kind-fits-all windshield that's the only thing available these days. The guy who did all the glass in my Conv't D had to grind the bottom of the windshield glass to match the cowl. That was the second windshield. The first one cracked all by itself as he walked out the shop door the evening after he installed it and tightened the tension rod.
Seems strange that you only hear of this problem as it relates to Conv't Ds and no problems with Rdstr. installations? Could it be the windshields available now are more Roadster than Conv't D shape?....................Dale

charles kourmpates

#6 Post by charles kourmpates »

Dale H Moody wrote:In my opinion: The cowl is definitely a different contour between the D and Rdstr. The guy who did all the glass in my Conv't D had to grind the bottom of the windshield glass to match the cowl. That was the second windshield. The first one cracked all by itself as he walked out the shop door the evening after he installed it and tightened the tension rod.
Seems strange that you only hear of this problem as it relates to Conv't Ds and no problems with Rdstr. installations? Could it be the windshields available now are more Roadster than Conv't D shape?....................Dale
Dale,

That's interesting and valuable information.

I just sent an e-mail to the person who told me the Roadster and "D" windshields were not the same. I'm asking for his source?

Certainly the front cowl body line can be different. My guess is, it is. So could the rear cowl body line.

My only interest, at the moment is getting absolute no guess work information, on the top bows. Hopfully from someone who actually has a "D" frame mounted on a Roadster or a Roadster frame mounted on a "D".

Just because the top bows are identical, if they are, doesn't mean I can have a "D" fabric top made using my "D" frame mounted to a Roadster?

That's the information I seek?

"I just want to be sure." A line from the movie Spy Games.

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D & Roadster Bows, WS Frame and Windshield

#7 Post by Roy Smalley »

D and Roadster top frames are not the same, and have at least one if not more, significant design differences. All D frames seem to be the same design. All Roadster frames seem to be the same design regardless of the body manufacturer. D and Roadster will probably interchange but in the up position, they will look different because of the positioning of one bow. (But only to someone that has several bare to compare)

The three windshield frame parts were custom fitted to form a unit, and custom fitted to the car. Many times the rear of the post was shimmed with aluminum strips to provide the proper rake for the top bows. D and Roadster.

The cowl/dash for the D and the roadster, discounting the holes made for switches that varied, is the same design, although they may have a different part number....and I am sure there are dimensional differences since after all these are hand made cars.

As for the windshields. The D and Roadster windshields are interchangeable; as far as I know, with perhaps a different part number signifying who knows what, there has only been one configuration for “D Roadster” for decades. But that does not imply that all windshields are made the same; they are not in length, width, thickness and sometimes contour.

All of this is why it is important, especially if you are mixing and matching parts, or the car has been wrecked or badly rusted, buy the windshield you are going to use, put the windshield/frame with new rubber together, mount it and the top bows, fit out the roll up windows and make sure everything suits you before you paint the car.

And remember, they are hand made cars.

Check the photos I made tonight (ignore dirty floor), The two in the foreground are D; the others for 60, 61 and 62. The detail shot shows the significant difference with the D in the foreground.
Image

Image

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PS on install top fabric.

#8 Post by Roy Smalley »

Easy job. Even with a car 'that's in the shop', because of those dadgummed hand built car dimensional differences, there is no guarantee it will fit unless it was fitted to your car.

Buy the top and put it on yourself.

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Re: D & Roadster Bows, WS Frame and Windshield

#9 Post by Barry Brisco »

Roy Smalley wrote:D and Roadster top frames are not the same, and have at least one if not more, significant design differences. All D frames seem to be the same design. All Roadster frames seem to be the same design regardless of the body manufacturer.
Roy, you might want to see this page which notes a change that was made during D production to the D top frame design.
http://convertibledregistry.com/facts_i ... g_top.html

"There was a change to the top design at some point during Convertible D production, with an extra piece added on each side to prevent it from folding at the rain gutter split."

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Top bows

#10 Post by Roy Smalley »

Both D in the photos have the extra link, but I only have the vin for the one still covered and it is one of the last 30 cars, current owner for 30 years or so; the other top bow is an extra.

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WANTED, late roadster top frame with extra link.

#11 Post by Bob Slayden »

I’m looking for a late roadster top frame with the “extra” link as described by Barry Brisco. If you have one you’re willing to part with, reply to me directly.

Thanks,

Bob Slayden
bslayden@comcast.net (bslayden@comcast.net)

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The missing link

#12 Post by Roy Smalley »

Of the 4 roadster top bows in my possession, 3 don't have the link, one does.

1. For a 62, it does not have the link and most assuredly came on the car.

2.For a 61 one owner, it does not have the link and it came with the car as delivered to the owner.

3. For a 60 Drauz that has the original interior colored trim (tan) on the header, is the only one with the extra link. (Both D bows have the extra link)

4. Of unknown history, but doesn't have the link.

Both known top bows for D'leteren seem to be identical but I would have to spend some time checking them further. However, they have other obvious design differences with some minor detail differences when compared to the other roadster and D bows.

If anyone has any other information I would like to hear it...

No claim to be an expert on anything; just observations.

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#13 Post by Barry Brisco »

Roy, thanks for all the info. As far as I'm concerned, you are an expert in this area and you certainly have a lot of top frames available for research!

It seems that there probably were multiple small changes in D / Roadster top frames during the 3 + year production run. This is not surprising: I'm sure that Porsche was continually trying to improve the design and made modifications as they saw fit without assigning a new part number.

Charles, my personal opinion is that it is unlikely that a Roadster frame will fit properly on your D.

After almost 50 years, it's hard enough to get a D frame that originally came with the car (meaning numbers matching) to fit right! I know that on my D 86439 the frame did not fit perfectly such that the top front rubber seal didn't leak a bit of air, and in the rain, water. But then some guys have told me that they didn't fit perfectly when they were new!

And by the way, the top on 86439 had the extra piece shown in the above photo. 86439 was built in June 1959.
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Roadster / Convertible "D" top frames?? Similiar?

#14 Post by Norm Miller »

Barry,

After the garage door fell onto the D top it fit nicely but looked a little weird.
I wonder how it will fit after Auggie and the boys finish it!
I can't find any reason the roadster top and the D top can't interchange with the normal amount of tweeking. Front and rear cowls are the same contour and the w/s frame is the same with consideration to the vin range.

Norm

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charles kourmpates

Re: Roadster / Convertible "D" top frames?? Simili

#15 Post by charles kourmpates »

Norm Miller wrote:I can't find any reason the roadster top and the D top can't interchange with the normal amount of tweeking. Front and rear cowls are the same contour and the w/s frame is the same with consideration to the vin range.
Norm,
Thanks for the info. :)
Barry Brisco wrote: Charles, my personal opinion is that it is unlikely that a Roadster frame will fit properly on your D.
Barry and others who have made themselves helpful, thank you, but

I think I may have made myself unclear with my original Post.

My interest was not fitting a Roadster frame on a "D", it was fitting "my personal D frame" on a Roadster to enable the making of a fabric top. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Roy, yes, I'll buy a top and fit it myself. Point well made and thank you. :shock:

My personal "D" frame is stamped 517 on the passenger side, in full view. Vin, 86517. Photo if necessary.

This frame also has the "added piece" Barry refers to in the photos he provided.

Both photos, provided by Barry, have many differences, especially the area above the windshield. The differences are so great, one would wonder why any D frame would be changed during production, briefly, only to have it changed again at the end of production, then change that design again for use on the Roadster? I'll bet no frame, whatever it was, went unused.

Could that be a Roadster frame in Barry's left side photo?

Could some Roadsters have been fitted with leftover "D" frames at the factory?

I'm certainly fortunate to have a "stamped" frame. My interest would be in other frames that can be identified with stamped numbers and the cars to which they belong.

I can't bring my car to Auto's for the fit, so I'm reaching for alternatives.

Your information and help is appreciated. Thanks again!

Anyone got a "D" going to Auto's? :)

Charles

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