AA Performance Flywheels

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Neil Schlabaugh
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Re: AA Performance Flywheels

#16 Post by Neil Schlabaugh »

I was not going say anymore since I kinda thread jacked this to be a railing on crappy parts but, if you would like examples here's one out of many we've experienced.

Customer bought parts for his car from a gentleman who makes/assembles said part in his garage, billed as a true bolt-on part. We get part and its readily apparent that this will not work without several hours of rework. Customer calls and gentleman/vendor says wow, I am shocked, your the 1st one that had this not fit. Fast forward to last month almost 2 years later, we are at a customers shop and his hired mechanic shows us parts made by same guy. We ask him have you had any fitment issues and he says yes, I called the gentleman/vendor and he says hes never had any one call about this not fitting before. Hmm, interesting no?

I remember having long talks with Brad Ripley about the difficulty of reproducing parts. You make 100 parts and by the time there machined, chromed etc. you have 65 parts that you can actually take to market. I can sympathize with vendors. I am great full for all the people in this hobby making/supplying quality parts. People that are willing to make a part and then change/revise a part to make it look or fit more like original. We can all look at vendor ads and see words like "concourse correct" and "exact copy of original" and in some cases its true, but more likely than not the part may be functional the same but in the looks department it completely blows it ( or vise versa) You say to yourself Porsche never made a part the looks like that cheap china made thing.

I have not attempted to make Flywheels but IMHO they are not a item that you have 3 Pre-Madonnas filing away, hand rubbing or splashing Holy Water on to produce. CNC machines should be able to replicate parts within how many thousandths. We've all watched " Made by Hand" where the Pleasant German Lady is checking rods, ccing heads,etc. If you are smart enuff to CNC a part why then cant you have someone checking said part to make sure its within spec? I agree that the end user needs to double check the part but for the end user to be the ONLY quality control measure really blows.

You want options eh? Say your furnace goes belly-up and instead of buying the Cadillac of furnaces you buy an impala. The guy installs it and before he leaves says "oh by the way this thing may or may not work all the time" What?? "yeah, the last 5 of these we installed I had to come back and work on because of faulty parts inside" How many people would buy that furnace if they would have known that up front. That also sounds expensive having the guy come back multiple times. But You saved money upfront right.

If it was me with this flywheel now i am wondering if they cant make it to spec what about the metallurgy? I guess maybe all vendors should put little stickers on their products that say "This part may or may not fit, work or look as intended"

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Martin Benade
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Re: AA Performance Flywheels

#17 Post by Martin Benade »

At least the metallurgy for a flywheel isn’t terribly critical. I remember when Subaru used cast iron.
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Jules Dielen
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Re: AA Performance Flywheels

#18 Post by Jules Dielen »

Expensive? Buying cheap parts only to find out they do not work or fit, that is expensive.

regretfully, even the expensive parts sometimes are not up to par. Like my Mahle P/C set.
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Jim Nelson
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Re: AA Performance Flywheels

#19 Post by Jim Nelson »

Joris Koning wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:17 am Ron,

Both myself and several people in my surroundings have had issues with with several parts brought to market by some of the well know places. These were parts that were clearly not tested on a car before being offered to the end consumer like you and me.

We all make mistakes and those we have been involved in making parts know that it is actually a lot more difficult than many realize. That being said, this is no excuse for not performing thorough QC and trying something on an actual car before offering it to the public.
This is the kind of thing Joris is talking about. We were restoring a car, and ordered up the top of the line deco strip, that had a bit more of a rounded end to it. When we got it, we noted that unlike the original decos which had slots (so you could fit it with some flexibility), there were square holes. OK, one thing to work around. Next, the bolts that came with it were too big for the slot--you couldn't fit the bolt where it needed to be unless you ground it down. So another thing to work around. Then, we noticed that unlike the originals, the ends didn't include a slot-like spot where the rubber fit into the very end, so here we go again. But the straw that broke the camel's back was this:
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This is soft aluminum, and apparently the holes were stamped into the extrusion, but every spot there was a hole, the aluminum had a check in it--it wasn't a straight piece at all. Not even a little bit.

And the very worst part--the deco came from Porsche Classic.

I don't think I would be far off if I said that we, as a group, would pay up for the very same piece that was fitted to our cars that we were trying to replace. Some reproductions, like front turn signals, are actually pretty good. But the things that we see get passed off as a reproduction part were apparently never fitted to real cars, it's just unacceptable, and our vendors need to know that some things are going to get returned, it's just a waste of time trying to fit things that don't fit in the first place.
It was the very first time someone had complained about it.

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Walt Nolte
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Re: AA Performance Flywheels

#20 Post by Walt Nolte »

Last spring I towed my 59 A Coupe with a 912 engine 200 miles for transmission work. This was the closest place where I could have this work done. As part of the rebuild project, the clutch, pressure plate, release bearing, starter and 12 V flywheel were replaced. A bit of clutch chatter, but was assured that after a few miles, this would go away. It did not and became increasingly worse throughout the summer. Difficult to drive. Finally, for the first time in over 45 years of ownership and with the help of a friend, removed the engine. The brand new flywheel, sourced from a well-known national firm specializing in VW/Porsche parts, was the culprit. Not even close to true. The vendor assured that this flywheel had never had issues before. Cost about $300 to replace the pressure plate, gland nut, and resurface the flywheel. The lesson? check the tolerances before installing.

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Martin Benade
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Re: AA Performance Flywheels

#21 Post by Martin Benade »

What part had to be machined to fix it? Personally I think it would be fair to all to name the part brand or supplier.
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Ron LaDow
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Re: AA Performance Flywheels

#22 Post by Ron LaDow »

C J Murray wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:39 am Brother Ron, as a source of quality items I would not hitch your wagon too firmly to defending some of the other brands of products.
I could write a book on this subject between my early years of import car repair, 10 years as a Dana Corp sales rep, 13 years owning 2 auto parts stores, and 23 years as a new powersports dealer representing 4 Japanese companies and one American company.
Conclusion, some companies are to be avoided.
I will take your (experienced) advice, but point out that my major gripe regarded assumption that the 'first time' claim was wrong; it often isn't.
And, in furtherance of your comments, "Bursch" (or whoever makes them now) is getting properly trashed over on the 912 board for delivering exhausts which make Dansk's fitting issues look mild by comparison:
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Jacques Lefriant
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Re: AA Performance Flywheels

#23 Post by Jacques Lefriant »

Hi CJ
I know where you are coming from but we (vendors) are not specifying parts for airplanes or having to support a warranty just making products available so that we(enthusiasts) can keep the cars going to suit our perceived needs. Ron must be your half brother I don't claim him.
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C J Murray
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Re: AA Performance Flywheels

#24 Post by C J Murray »

Jacques Lefriant wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:57 pm Hi CJ
I know where you are coming from but we (vendors) are not specifying parts for airplanes or having to support a warranty just making products available so that we(enthusiasts) can keep the cars going to suit our perceived needs. Ron must be your half brother I don't claim him.
j
I think Ron is half crazy! Then again, what about you and me?
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Re: AA Performance Flywheels

#25 Post by Brad Ripley »

After all the talk about Chinese flywheels, you can get the good German-produced ones from Stoddard NLA. Chinese-produced ones from AA Products are not offered. These are guaranteed equal or better than the old originals in terms of dimensions and material quality. Plus, ring gear teeth are integral to the whole.
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Ron LaDow
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Re: AA Performance Flywheels

#26 Post by Ron LaDow »

C J Murray wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:52 pm [...]
I think Ron is half crazy! Then again, what about you and me?
There are more than a couple of folks who would claim you are half-right.
Anyhow, WRT the parts, when I put the AA part on the C (and it has worked well), I would have bought Brad's part simply on cost/benefit. Similarly to exhaust sources now; what would you pay for one which actually fit?
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Harlan Halsey
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Re: AA Performance Flywheels

#27 Post by Harlan Halsey »

When I was In engineering there was a chain of events like this:
1.specify
2. get bids/place order
3.quality control/inspect/test pre production sample-make changes or accept
4.order production quantity

Judging from some of the parts I have received, I think that often step 1 is "make it like this sample" and step 3 is omitted. Thus the, " we have sold 50 of these and you are the first to complain" response even when the part cannot possibly work.

Often we are dealing with cottage suppliers in very small amounts and corner cutting is done to save costs so as to get the product to market at a price where it will sell.

Another problem is the length of todays supply chains. When our 356s were built Porsche's supply chain distance was miniscule and there was excess capacity of highly skilled people, in the aftermath of WWII. As a result, Porsche was able to source things which no one has been able to reproduce, not that they haven't tried , Carrera cylinder heads, and 356 heads, until very recently, maybe. Those days will not return, so it is incumbent on us to do the quality control.

One implication is that if you cannot do the quality control, or get it done, may be you shouldn't attempt the project.

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Vic Skirmants
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Re: AA Performance Flywheels

#28 Post by Vic Skirmants »

"One implication is that if you cannot do the quality control, or get it done, may be you shouldn't attempt the project."
Hear, hear! :P

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Glen Getchell
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Re: AA Performance Flywheels

#29 Post by Glen Getchell »

Ok, here is the update on the AA Flywheel situation.

After my difficulty reaching AA (which has never happened before, but throughout this entire event I had troubles reaching them or had to initiate all communications including asking for updates, etc...) I was annoyed that they were not more pro-active with the communications. Any way, I was told that nobody has ever had a problem in the past (SOB, what a surprise), but that they were going to have their people check them out. Eventually the response was that they have checked them, and that "some" of them were in fact out of spec. I interpret that in retail speak to be all of them are FUBAR. They requested my patience as it would take a few days to tool up to repair them. After a week and a half, I sent another e-mail, and they said they were sending me another one along with a pre-paid postage to send the old one back. So in the end I received a new Flywheel from AA. The new flywheel is within nominal or machined spec except for the total thickness of the disk. But in truth, the shape is hard to measure, and I'm not sure based on the book where the measurement is meant to be taken. However, I can not see how this deviation would have any bearing on anything.

I Installed the flywheel (after pulling the rear seal off of every engine I have to find a shim to set end play. Lucked out there). I was able to get my racing puck clutch disk and pressure plate re-built by the manufacture which resulted in a considerable savings (honestly, I did not know they did that). So these parts are essentially new as well. I adjusted the clutch and took it for a test drive, and all seems fine. Clutch is working, I was able to get a good end play, and I did not feel any vibration. The question now is durability especially with the racing clutch.

The whole fiasco took about 2 weeks. The new flywheel (using a floor scale that I get on and off till I get a number I like) put the new flywheel somewhere around 13.5lbs MOL and the screwed up one at under 13lbs. AA. took care of the problem despite my difficulty in reaching them. I am annoyed that I had an issue to begin with, annoyed with my trouble getting a hold of AA, annoyed that I worked for free as their quality control department, and annoyed that I had to schlep the first flywheel over to the post office. But with that said (baring any unexpected future issues with the flywheel) I would buy one again. I'm sorry, I just can't rationalize the price difference between an AA flywheel and the others on the market. In addition, I just can't see how a machined metal disk could possibly warrant the price most others are asking.

In the end, I suspect AA got a bad batch and they never checked them. I don't believe there was a good one in the bunch (or I would not have had wait two weeks). I saved them and all of you who end up buying one a lot of hassles. Your welcome! :D

Now I want to get my 2 cents in on junk parts. Dansk Mufflers. Total Junk, and the company does not stand by their products even slightly. I will never buy another Dansk product ever. And they're not Chineese or cheap! Seriously after dealing with Dansk, I can tell you that they are a &%$ company and do not deserve any of our business! Stoddard's Roadster windshield trim (Not sure what car that is meant to go on, but it ain't no 356 Roadster), and rear sheet metal tray. Really? Is it that hard to copy something? Like others have said. Has anybody actually checked to see if these parts fit the cars before selling them? And one thing that I have learned. Price does not define quality. Some times the cheap stuff is good, and some times the expensive stuff is junk. So it's a crap shoot. And many of these parts would be half the price if our cars had not gone up in value.

Glen
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C J Murray
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Re: AA Performance Flywheels

#30 Post by C J Murray »

Glen Getchell wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:21 am In the end, I suspect AA got a bad batch and they never checked them. I don't believe there was a good one in the bunch (or I would not have had wait two weeks). I saved them and all of you who end up buying one a lot of hassles. Your welcome!
I can't agree. AA botched the response to defective wrist pins. They botched your flywheel problem. I don't trust them because history proves that they don't have a handle on quality control. I like sleeping well at night, no AA for me. I don't want to end up in AA! :P

Price doesn't determine quality, true, but the management of the brand does. AA and Dansk have management that I do not trust.
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