Antigravity assitance needed developing 6v Lithium Battery

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Scott Schafer
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Antigravity assitance needed developing 6v Lithium Battery

#1 Post by Scott Schafer »

Hi all,

I'm the owner of a company called Antigravity Batteries. We are a company that specializes in Lithium-Ion Batteries for Motorsports/Powersports. I had made a post on Rennlist asking for help in developing a new 6v version of our Lithium Automotive Batteries since we attend quite a few Porsche Tradeshows and Races and often get asked if we make a 6v version of the battery for 356s.... and also the members on Rennlist said to go inquire about 356s over here to get some detailed info on what the 356 Owners might want to see in a Battery that is designed for the 356... as well as other 6v Cars.

So as I said we are developing a new 6v varient of our Lithium Batteries. So I have some questions first, and after that will give some detail of why a Lithium Batttery would also be better than a Lead/Acid...

First the Questions..... and if you can provide any pictures that would be great.

1- What are the dimension of the Original Battery that fits in the 356? It it actually the 19L that I see is talked about? I do have those dimensions from Websites.

2- What are the actual dimensions of the Battery area in the 356? I know of the indent for the battery area, but would like to know the exact measurements so I can understand what sizes might work in that area. Also the maximum L x Wx H that could fit in this location and still work. Our objective is to use a size that would fit but it might not be the EXACT size of the 19L that I see as the recommended Battery. How tall can the Battery be maximum? Is 8" too tall? Is 8.5 inches to tall? We don't want the terminals to be to close to the upper area in the niche where it sits.

3- Would it matter if the Terminals are not diagonal as the 6v 19L is? Would it be a deal-breaker for the Battery to have Terminals on the same side like they do for 12v Batteries? The reason I ask this is because that Diagonal Terminal style is not very efficient and would restrict the use of the battery case for use in other 6v Cars. I see some have adapted the Optima Battery and that does not seem to remotely have a good fit for the 356s.... so we would try to do much better than that. I just want to understand how important that is.

4- Would 356 owners be open to a battery that is not exactly like the 19L, but does fit the are of the indent well? For example it might be 1/2" less wide from Left to Right , or maybe an inch taller, or a little shorter... OUr objective is to get a close fit into that area but it might has a little bit different measurements than the 19L size.

5- How is the battery held in place? I cannot tell exactly. We would be looking to make something so it is a drop in fit, but want to understand how it is held down and in place so we can make a mount or use what is standard or develope something for and super easy install. Any suggestion are welcome.

A little about Lithium

So the benefits of Lithium are these below.

1- Lithium does not self-discharge like Lead/Acid does. So if there is not big drains from your Car when the car is sitting Lithium can sit about 8-12 months and not lose its energy.

2- Lithium can't leak... there are no acid or corrosive elements inside the battery, it is a dry-cell technology. Does not suffer from vibration.

3-Lithium is rated at OVER twice the Cycles of Lead/Acid... so over twice the lifespan and usually assume 8-10 years. This a labratory fact, not something we are saying. Lithium Cells are rated at roughly 2500 cycles, Lead is rated at 1000 Cycles.

4-Lithium is super lightweight.. not that this will matter alot in a 356 unless you want to race it, but the battery will weigh about 8 to 11 lbs when we finish.

5- Lithium has a high-pulse discharge.. better starting and a slightly higher voltage than lead.. but will charge fine off your charging system as a direct replacement for lead/acid.

6- We make our Lithium Batteries with a full Battery Management System inside the Battery. So it cannot over-discharge, over-charge, be short-circuited or damaged by accidentally leaving your lights on. In fact this battery (if all works out) will have WIRELESS BUILT-IN JUMP STARTING as our 12v version of the battery does. This is not just a replacement battery but a ground-breaking LEAP forward in Battery technology.

CONS

1- Our Battery will cost MORE than a lead/Acid battery. So the price of entry is about double the cost. But as I mentioned it will have double the life, and built-in Jump Starting and won't leak acid. So you won't get stranded by a dead battery...

2- Lithium will require a special charger... IF you ever have to charge the battery using a stand alone charger. But IF you don't have parasitic drains on the battery you will rarely need to charge it... and secondly if you do over-discharge it you just press the Wiresless keyfob that operates the bulit-in Jump Starting... then you can just start the car again and drive to charge it... or use a charger.

4- Might not look like a vintage older 6v battery because design will be more standard looking, but it will fit well and look clean.

I appreciate any comments, and if any questions let me know. You can see a video of what our 12v Batteries do here>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4zZ0ZAIRkc

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Re: Antigravity assitance needed developing 6v Lithium Battery

#2 Post by Greg Haskin »

Thank you for reaching out to the 356 community for input. You will undoubtedly get lots of feedback - much of it useful. My suggestion is that you tell us where you are located, and invite a few local owners to lunch with their cars. Your own little focus group. Take plenty of measurements and listen to what is important to each. Personally, the concept sounds very intriguing. Both of my 356s are 6 volt, and I’m always a little worried about how long the batteries will last or how well they will perform - especially if they sit for a while. The one big concern is whether your lithium battery will present a similar fire danger as those prohibited on commercial flights? As you know, our battery is located very close to the gas tank....
 

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Re: Antigravity assitance needed developing 6v Lithium Battery

#3 Post by David Jones »

Find some 356 owners near you and select a few cars to examine. A 59 and a 64 model will cover most eventualities as the position in the trunk changes with those two batteries but not the size. Position of the cable connection is not as important as keeping the terminal size but the position of the +ve terminal is, as there is not a lot of wiggle room to reposition The negative cable is braided copper so can be made very flexible to accommodate terminal positioning. Good luck and I welcome this sort of innovation.
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Doug McDonnell
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Re: Antigravity assitance needed developing 6v Lithium Battery

#4 Post by Doug McDonnell »

Scott 19L is indeed the correct size battery for my C coupe. Battery has a plastic cover and is held by a strap from the rear wall of the battery compartment over the top of the battery to a metal loop on the front of the battery tray. To keep the battery from moving towards the middle of the car there is an L shaped metal tab which you can see in the bottom right of the photo. Both can be seen fairly well in the picture here which is the only one I have but it shows a 6Volt Optima battery with the wooden "cloaking device" that makes it look like a lead acid battery. Hope this helps. There are some good pictures and measurements of the battery area in this link: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35019 If height of a battery is too tall hold down strap would have to be modified. Depth is maxed out by the support bracket approx 7 1/4 inch, and length could maybe be up to 1/2 inch longer than 19L as there is a little adjustment of the L shaped bracket-but not much.
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1965 356C 2000 BMW 740i Sport 1967 Honda CL77 There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.

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Re: Antigravity assitance needed developing 6v Lithium Battery

#5 Post by David Jones »

Doug, Doug, you are missing the piece of rubber hose over the "L" shaped piece to protect the battery case from chafing on the metal angle. Please fix it before I call the Porsche protection police service.
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Doug McDonnell
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Re: Antigravity assitance needed developing 6v Lithium Battery

#6 Post by Doug McDonnell »

I have it on mine David but the above photo is what I could find in focus tonight. Gonna have frost-too cold to go out to the garage. I need a heated attached garage with a lift. Maybe I need to play the Lotto because I am sure I won't be going back to the slave pit to earn money again. PS I recommend A and D ointment for chafing David:>)
1965 356C 2000 BMW 740i Sport 1967 Honda CL77 There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.

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Re: Antigravity assitance needed developing 6v Lithium Battery

#7 Post by Scott Schafer »

1- Really appreciate the quick response! Thanks. Pictures helped showing that hold down.

2- We are in Gardena, CA 90248 which is below South LA. near to Torrance. I will be asking for assistance from a few people in about 2 weeks, or sooner. So would like to have some people come down if close to LA. So anyone in the area want to assist let me know. I would need I think about 4 people/cars just to confirm the possible differences in they types and in condition of vehicles and charging systems. For Testing and assistance we will compensate those who assist us with our products. I can be reached at scott@antigravitybatteries.com. It is better than a PM since I always see my emails.

3- I see from that hold-d down it looks like a Rubber strap over the battery... do they make this rubber piece as something you can buy somewhere? I'm asking because we might include one with the battery depending on its size in relation to the original 19L... being that our battery might be less tall or a tad taller. Seems pretty simple, but my objective is to make the install as easy as possible.

4- I noticed compared to another picture on Rennlist that Doug's Battery is on the left of the Car... yet in another it is in the Center which I assume is a difference in year or the 59 vs 64 model that was mentioned above above. Sorry, I'm not entirely in the know yet on the 356s, but I will be in no time.

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Re: Antigravity assitance needed developing 6v Lithium Battery

#8 Post by Doug McDonnell »

62-65 have battery passengers side. All earlier had battery in center of the battery box floor which was completely different than the later 62-65 cars. Rubber hold down strap for C available from most of our Vendors. I use Stoddard mostly as I live in the Midwest. Strap: https://www.stoddard.com/64461115500-nla.html.html
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Re: Antigravity assitance needed developing 6v Lithium Battery

#9 Post by Scott Schafer »

Some one posted about the Safety of Lithium Batteries.... and that absolutely should be addressed as a "do not pass go" issue.

1- To be clear.... there are different chemistries of Lithium-Ion. Lithium-Ion only is an umbrella term for a "rechargeable Lithium based battery". So there are several different Lithium-Ion chemistries in products you buy, We use Lithium-Iron Phosphate (Lifepo4). It is regarded as one of the safest Lithium Chemistries.. it is a very stable format and not prone to what is called Thermal Runaway which is an over-heating of the battery which results in a melt-down of the battery. Additionally it works at the same voltage range as Lead/Acid Batteries... it runs at a mildly higher voltage but this does not effect anything. On the other hand there is Lithium Polymer/Lithium Cobalt which is used in Hoover Boards, Phones and other applications. It is much more unstable and has a much higher energy density than our Lifepo-4. So it can hold more energy in a smaller format, but it is much more sensitive to charging, over-charging and over discharging making it much more likely to go into thermal runaway. So you have to understand there are different chemistries and hoover boards that were catching fire were NOT what we use in our products. Also those product were not regulated, or high quality.

2- The key to safety in a Lithium battery is using high quality Lithium Cells, and having a full Battery Management System inside the Battery itself. It's basically a Circuit Board inside the battery that controls many aspects of the battery. So its the built-in protection system for the battery. For example if you leave you lights on your car with a Lead/Acid Battery you battery will over-discharge... the longer it is over-discharge the more it is damaged and it won't last very long after a deep over-discharge. But our BMS on the battery WON"T allow the Lithium Battery to ever be over-discharged. It puts the battery to sleep right before it is fully discharged. This does two things.... 1) It protects the battery from being over-discharged and being damaged/ruined, and by having that protection it also makes it so you CANT damage the battery. So you won't accidentally damage your battery. Last if you take a Lithium battery into a deeply discharge level... then start the car and FAST charge it that can create a Thermal Runaway incident... but note... non of our batteries allow this, the Circuit board will cut off all energy to or from the battery if over-discharged.

Another point with full BMS is that you can't over-charge the battery either because the Circuit Board will cut-off the high voltage. Also with our battery it has short-ciruit protection and alll the cells are balanced as you car charges the battery. So this makes for the longest life possible, but also prevents the battery from ever being allow to get to a point where it is outside a safe operating range. So it makes for an exceptionally safe battery.

3- Earlier versions of Lithium Batteries that were being made DID NOT have this BMS technology. And in fact we still make Racing Batteries that do not has a BMS.... and they are still some of our best sellers because they are exceptionally compact and high power, and will not have any issues when taken care of. And being blunt Thermal Runaway requires some severe actions to occur for the battery to melt. Its a rare instance even without a BMS. But for all our modern Batteries and all our street vehicle batteries we only use a full BMS.

4- We are not here to put out a product that would be remotely dangerous, our business depends on making products that are safe and functional and do what we say. You can go to Rennlist to check us out... I've been over there a long time and selling our 12v Batteries to the Rennlisters and there tons of commentary to look at. I personally own a 2016 GT3RS and would not have our batteries in my Car, let alone any of the other GT3RS and GT2RSs that we are in if I didn't have 100% confidence in the safety of the product.

Last, we also developed the first Mini Lithium Jump Starters believe it or not... we introduced that Category at SEMA in 2013. Ours is called the MICRO-START, we actually received the "Best Rated Jump Starter" for our XP-10 MICRO-START product from Consumer Reports. We are still arguably the best product in that Category, but now there are hundreds of different brand all over it seems.... So though you might not have heard of us, we have a pretty big footprint in the Lithium nitch.

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Re: Antigravity assitance needed developing 6v Lithium Battery

#10 Post by David Jones »

Scott, how about a 6 volt mini lithium jump start battery as well for those who do not want to go to a base lithium set up in a 6 volt car. I carry a "Bolt" 12 volt version for emergency use in my 12 volt cars and for emergency cell phone charging. In a pinch I would use it on my 6 volt car but a 6 volt version would be better to own.
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Re: Antigravity assitance needed developing 6v Lithium Battery

#11 Post by Scott Schafer »

David Jones wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:48 am Scott, how about a 6 volt mini lithium jump start battery as well for those who do not want to go to a base lithium set up in a 6 volt car. I carry a "Bolt" 12 volt version for emergency use in my 12 volt cars and for emergency cell phone charging. In a pinch I would use it on my 6 volt car but a 6 volt version would be better to own.
That is something I will work on, I'll let you know if we can do this... our issue on that project is the tooling costs and circuit board design...

So let me talk to the product designers and see if we can do this without too much cost. I have to also look at the market for it to support the tooling costs. But I will get back to you on this. The fact is I have been asked that before. Just put it on the back burner, but since we are looking at the Car 6v may as well run it by the guys.

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Re: Antigravity assitance needed developing 6v Lithium Battery

#12 Post by Mike Wilson »

Scott: I am in Lomita. I will contact you when we return from Phoenix later today.
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Re: Antigravity assitance needed developing 6v Lithium Battery

#13 Post by James Davies »

Most of our cars came with the 84 Ah DIN-spec battery. The earliest coupes in 1951 and 1952 and the pre-A Speedsters came with the smaller, 77 Ah battery.

There are old 1950s DIN specs for both of these. Bosch Classic has recently started remanufacturing these in case you need to get a handle on dimensions and details.

There more discussion of these batteries and their use in this older thread

viewtopic.php?t=41235

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Re: Antigravity assitance needed developing 6v Lithium Battery

#14 Post by Michael Branning »

Scott, I’m very pleased to see your inquiry. I recently inquired with your company about a 6V battery for our C coupe. Would the 6V version have the “reserve” or “internal jump start” feature? That’s a great innovation. PS - big Lithium proponent here. I converted my 2018 Polaris EV with a Voltronix kit...it’s been outstanding.
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Re: Antigravity assitance needed developing 6v Lithium Battery

#15 Post by Jeffrey Vogel »

I would be interested in one of these two particularly if it could have a higher cold cranking amperage for starting , something close to optimum battery
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