Crankshaft Dowel Pin 'C' Engine
-
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 668
- Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:02 am
- Location: Washington DC Area
Re: Crankshaft Dowel Pin 'C' Engine
Mark,
Getting back to your original question-find a "high end" machine shop with a Metal Disintegration machine to remove the broken dowel. I've done this in the past when dealing with sheared dowel pins.
Getting back to your original question-find a "high end" machine shop with a Metal Disintegration machine to remove the broken dowel. I've done this in the past when dealing with sheared dowel pins.
- Mark Sabbann
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 792
- Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:21 am
- Location: Stillwater, MN
Re: Crankshaft Dowel Pin 'C' Engine
Juha, are you referring to the Maestro's Spec Book? I have that book but don't find that info. I also have the B/C shop manual which doesn't address this spec in the normal flywheel removal/installation pages.
Mark Sabbann
1964 SC Coupe 'Essy'
1965 C Coupe 'The Yellow Delicious'
1964 SC Coupe 'Essy'
1965 C Coupe 'The Yellow Delicious'
- Ron LaDow
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 8092
- Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:45 am
- Location: San Francisco
Re: Crankshaft Dowel Pin 'C' Engine
Mark,Mark Sabbann wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:09 am [...]
Juha, are you referring to the Maestro's Spec Book? I have that book but don't find that info. I also have the B/C shop manual which doesn't address this spec in the normal flywheel removal/installation pages.
Probably this one:
Ron LaDow
www.precisionmatters.biz
www.precisionmatters.biz
- Mark Sabbann
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 792
- Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:21 am
- Location: Stillwater, MN
Re: Crankshaft Dowel Pin 'C' Engine
So if I am to understand the drawing provided by Juha, there is a 1.5 degree bevel on the face of the area where the soft iron gasket goes, for a shallow dishing of the gasket under the gland nut?
Sorry for the poor lighting in my photo, but as you can see, the seal sits proud of the crankcase, is this normal? As you can see, a lot of black RTV was used too. I found a thread that discusses the seal, trimming it and seating it properly: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44170. Is it necessary that the seal be flush? I've trimmed the outer lip of my new seal and thought that was enough to avoid the overheating issue.
At the moment without the gland nut in place, there is a gap between the back of the seal and the shim washer. Is that normal? The shop manual indicates that it "must seat flush on the bottom of the oil seal recess".
Sorry for the poor lighting in my photo, but as you can see, the seal sits proud of the crankcase, is this normal? As you can see, a lot of black RTV was used too. I found a thread that discusses the seal, trimming it and seating it properly: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44170. Is it necessary that the seal be flush? I've trimmed the outer lip of my new seal and thought that was enough to avoid the overheating issue.
At the moment without the gland nut in place, there is a gap between the back of the seal and the shim washer. Is that normal? The shop manual indicates that it "must seat flush on the bottom of the oil seal recess".
- Attachments
-
- DSCN7658.JPG (778.02 KiB) Viewed 1346 times
Mark Sabbann
1964 SC Coupe 'Essy'
1965 C Coupe 'The Yellow Delicious'
1964 SC Coupe 'Essy'
1965 C Coupe 'The Yellow Delicious'
- Mark Sabbann
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 792
- Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:21 am
- Location: Stillwater, MN
Re: Crankshaft Dowel Pin 'C' Engine
Thanks Ron, I have the 2nd edition of that book but it doesn't address this measurement, must have been added in the 3rd edition.Ron LaDow wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:01 amMark,Mark Sabbann wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:09 am [...]
Juha, are you referring to the Maestro's Spec Book? I have that book but don't find that info. I also have the B/C shop manual which doesn't address this spec in the normal flywheel removal/installation pages.
Probably this one:img20190905_07585565.jpg
Mark Sabbann
1964 SC Coupe 'Essy'
1965 C Coupe 'The Yellow Delicious'
1964 SC Coupe 'Essy'
1965 C Coupe 'The Yellow Delicious'
- Mark Sabbann
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 792
- Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:21 am
- Location: Stillwater, MN
Re: Crankshaft Dowel Pin 'C' Engine
In my photo you can see the broken pin at about 4 o'clock. The Milwaukee cobalt bits I bought barely make a dent in the dowel pin so I am looking for an EDM shop.
Mark Sabbann
1964 SC Coupe 'Essy'
1965 C Coupe 'The Yellow Delicious'
1964 SC Coupe 'Essy'
1965 C Coupe 'The Yellow Delicious'
- Mike Smith
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 1275
- Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:55 am
- Tag: Its Only for Fun
- Location: Ramsden Heath, Essex, CM11 1HS, UK
- Contact:
Re: Crankshaft Dowel Pin 'C' Engine
Brad Ripley - Mark, Have you carefully inspected the overall condition of your crank? Determine condition before dealing with the dowel pin problem. Suggest not going any further. Just send the crank off to Walt at Competition Engineering http://www.competitioneng.com/CrankshaftRods.htm for a complete evaluation and possible repair. Also I believe Ollie's can do the same thing, see: http://www.olliesmachine.com/
Mark - this is sound advice - You need people who have successfully carried out this in the past
Mike Smith (Essex - UK)
- Wes Bender
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 4930
- Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:54 am
- Location: Somewhere in the Gadsden Purchase, USA
Re: Crankshaft Dowel Pin 'C' Engine
++2
Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.....
- Don Gale
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 1181
- Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:27 pm
- Tag: Black A's Matter
- Location: Albuquerque
- Contact:
Re: Crankshaft Dowel Pin 'C' Engine
Perhaps the crank was previously repaired and one or more of the new dowel holes was drilled off location, causing all 8 not to share the shear force equally, biasing excess shear force on the broken one? Or the flywheel holes are a bit sloppy, causing the same demise?
1958 356A 1600 Super Sunroof Coupe
former 1966 Euro 912 Sunroof
former 1978 Intermeccanica Speedster w/'68 912
Member Since 1983, #4039
"Nostalgia isn't what it used to be"
former 1966 Euro 912 Sunroof
former 1978 Intermeccanica Speedster w/'68 912
Member Since 1983, #4039
"Nostalgia isn't what it used to be"
- Wes Bender
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 4930
- Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:54 am
- Location: Somewhere in the Gadsden Purchase, USA
Re: Crankshaft Dowel Pin 'C' Engine
I don't think so Don. The crank and flywheel are softer than the dowel pins. The distortion would be apparent. Considering the value of these engines, I think it prudent to have everything checked. It's only money though. How much do you want to gamble?
Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.....
- Don Gale
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 1181
- Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:27 pm
- Tag: Black A's Matter
- Location: Albuquerque
- Contact:
Re: Crankshaft Dowel Pin 'C' Engine
Well, the OP has a few decisions to make. His initial problem was a leaky seal and was sure it would be a quick weekend repair. The unpleasant discovery of the broken dowel certainly complicates things. Now, what are his options?
1. full teardown and send crank & flywheel to the shop for a proper inspection/repair. Does the OP want to take on opening the case and re-assemble himself? Perhaps not at this time.
2. find a machine shop with a plunge EDM and hope they're willing/able to do it in situ on a complete motor.
If not, roll the dice and drive gingerly with 7 new dowels til the next full teardown, probably not the best option considering the risk, no hard shifts knowing it would only take once to screw the pooch, in which case he will be faced with a teardown and extensive machining cost.
It's a crap shoot what I would do. A teardown and proper repair at this point won't be cheap. A teardown later if the dowel bites him in the ass will be even more expensive. If all the other 7 dowels are snug in the crank and flywheel, I'd remove the good ones and replace them with new, cross my fingers and hope the shop can remove the broken one and live with the consequnces, looking for another good crank to have in reserve if needed.
3. what is the motor's current health otherwise? How many more years/miles til it needs a full rebuild?
1. full teardown and send crank & flywheel to the shop for a proper inspection/repair. Does the OP want to take on opening the case and re-assemble himself? Perhaps not at this time.
2. find a machine shop with a plunge EDM and hope they're willing/able to do it in situ on a complete motor.
If not, roll the dice and drive gingerly with 7 new dowels til the next full teardown, probably not the best option considering the risk, no hard shifts knowing it would only take once to screw the pooch, in which case he will be faced with a teardown and extensive machining cost.
It's a crap shoot what I would do. A teardown and proper repair at this point won't be cheap. A teardown later if the dowel bites him in the ass will be even more expensive. If all the other 7 dowels are snug in the crank and flywheel, I'd remove the good ones and replace them with new, cross my fingers and hope the shop can remove the broken one and live with the consequnces, looking for another good crank to have in reserve if needed.
3. what is the motor's current health otherwise? How many more years/miles til it needs a full rebuild?
1958 356A 1600 Super Sunroof Coupe
former 1966 Euro 912 Sunroof
former 1978 Intermeccanica Speedster w/'68 912
Member Since 1983, #4039
"Nostalgia isn't what it used to be"
former 1966 Euro 912 Sunroof
former 1978 Intermeccanica Speedster w/'68 912
Member Since 1983, #4039
"Nostalgia isn't what it used to be"
- Mark Sabbann
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 792
- Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:21 am
- Location: Stillwater, MN
Re: Crankshaft Dowel Pin 'C' Engine
Don, you have pretty much read my mind with your thoughts.Don Gale wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:57 pm Well, the OP has a few decisions to make. His initial problem was a leaky seal and was sure it would be a quick weekend repair. The unpleasant discovery of the broken dowel certainly complicates things. Now, what are his options?
1. full teardown and send crank & flywheel to the shop for a proper inspection/repair. Does the OP want to take on opening the case and re-assemble himself? Perhaps not at this time.
2. find a machine shop with a plunge EDM and hope they're willing/able to do it in situ on a complete motor.
If not, roll the dice and drive gingerly with 7 new dowels til the next full teardown, probably not the best option considering the risk, no hard shifts knowing it would only take once to screw the pooch, in which case he will be faced with a teardown and extensive machining cost.
It's a crap shoot what I would do. A teardown and proper repair at this point won't be cheap. A teardown later if the dowel bites him in the ass will be even more expensive. If all the other 7 dowels are snug in the crank and flywheel, I'd remove the good ones and replace them with new, cross my fingers and hope the shop can remove the broken one and live with the consequnces, looking for another good crank to have in reserve if needed.
3. what is the motor's current health otherwise? How many more years/miles til it needs a full rebuild?
It WAS intended to be a weekend repair and has grown beyond that.
1. I am not inclined to perform a full tear down so I will look into outside options.
2. I am looking for EDM services but really think I should be looking beyond that to the full tear down and inspection. If I understand the concern behind the recommendation for an inspection, it is that whatever caused the pin to break could have tweaked the crankshaft in some way, beyond just visible elongation of the pinholes.
3. Also in support of a teardown, the car and engine run strong but do have about 230K miles on them. Assuming it is still the original crankshaft, it may be a good time to take a look.
The timing is poor as I have to get the car into storage soon. Depending on what availability I can find in a shop, I may have to reassemble everything as is, drive it to storage and deal with it next Spring. I won't have access while stored.
So, not the best news to get, but maybe the best timed news to get depending on inspection results.
Mark Sabbann
1964 SC Coupe 'Essy'
1965 C Coupe 'The Yellow Delicious'
1964 SC Coupe 'Essy'
1965 C Coupe 'The Yellow Delicious'
- Martin Benade
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 12348
- Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:52 am
- Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Re: Crankshaft Dowel Pin 'C' Engine
Or tow it to storage and keep the engine. If the engine really has 230k miles i imagine it is ready for a lot of rebuilding. They seldom last that many miles.
Cleveland Ohio
62 Cabriolet
56 VW
02 IS 300
04 Sienna
62 Cabriolet
56 VW
02 IS 300
04 Sienna
- Juha Vane
- 356 Fan
- Posts: 311
- Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:06 pm
- Location: Sumiainen, Finland
Re: Crankshaft Dowel Pin 'C' Engine
The spec book is Porsche P/N WKD420220, available for example here:
https://www.stoddard.com/wkd420220.html
https://www.stoddard.com/wkd420220.html
KTF,
Juha Vane
Finland
'59 308
'63 356
'85 911
Juha Vane
Finland
'59 308
'63 356
'85 911
- Vic Skirmants
- Registry Hall of Fame
- Posts: 9300
- Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:02 pm
- Location: SE Michigan
- Contact:
Re: Crankshaft Dowel Pin 'C' Engine
Over the years, for various reasons, I have used a crank with 7 dowels; in my RACE engines.
You decide.
You decide.