Type 64, Porsche or not a Porsche?

[Greg Haskin]

Wow, appreciate the passion... In answer to your questions Sebastian, NO, my car wasn't built before 1948. NO, it's doubtful that it had any association with KdF wagons. NO, not aware of the Porsche factory ever turning down an opportunity to buy my car or that they ever commented on it in any way. So, according to you and Cliff, my '61 356 T5 Roadster (89458) is not a Porsche. Odd, the Porsche factory did issue a CoA on it though. So, what would you boys prefer that it be called if not Porsche?

[C J Murray]

My 356 wasn't built at the Porsche factory. Does that mean that it's not a Porsche?

Semantics. Your car was finish assembled at Porsche. The body was produced at one of a hand full of subcontractors that built bodies for Porsche. Many companies produced components for Porsche which they assembled into complete cars which were sold by them as Porsches.

Try again.

[C J Murray]

you boys

Really?

[Greg Haskin]

Cliff, there is a lot of discussion on this site about cars that were built and shipped directly from Belgium. There are a couple hundred 356s that weren’t built at the Porsche factory at all. Semantics schemantics. I only raise the point to illustrate how absurd some of the “experts” come off when adding 2and 2 to make their conclusion 5. Whether the Type 64 is or isn’t will never be resolved. The fact that it wasn’t built at “the factory” doesn’t decide the issue, as other Porsche’s were built outside the factory as well.

[Sebastian Gaeta]

Wow, appreciate the passion... In answer to your questions Sebastian, NO, my car wasn't built before 1948. NO, it's doubtful that it had any association with KdF wagons. NO, not aware of the Porsche factory ever turning down an opportunity to buy my car or that they ever commented on it in any way. So, according to you and Cliff, my '61 356 T5 Roadster (59458) is not a Porsche. Odd, the Porsche factory did issue a CoA on it though. So, what would you boys prefer that it be called if not Porsche?

Greg, reread my question at the bottom of that post. I fixed it and it will make sense now

[Sebastian Gaeta]

Cliff, there is a lot of discussion on this site about cars that were built and shipped directly from Belgium. There are a couple hundred 356s that weren’t built at the Porsche factory at all. Semantics schemantics. I only raise the point to illustrate how absurd some of the “experts” come off when adding 2and 2 to make their conclusion 5. Whether the Type 64 is or isn’t will never be resolved. The fact that it wasn’t built at “the factory” doesn’t decide the issue, as other Porsche’s were built outside the factory as well.

It was built before there was a Porsche factory, before Porsche was a manufacturer and it started life as a KdF vehicle on paper, in name and and in build. The Porsche factory has said it’s not a Porsche. Not sure what the confusion is.

[C J Murray]

Greg, You forgot to mention cars built in South Africa, another pointless example.

What brand name were these cars sold as? That is the brand of that car.

According to you I own a McLaren. I actually own a 1964 Elva Courier. Trojan Cars built my car but they did not brand the car Trojan. Trojan-Elva is like GM-Buick. A couple of years later Bruce McLaren contracted Trojan to build his first cars and shortly thereafter he purchased Trojan to form McLaren. In 1964 McLaren Cars did not exist.Trojan brand cars never existed. In the 1930s Porsche brand cars did not exist. Cars are branded when they are born and that is what they will always be. Your definition of brand is chaos.

NOT a McLaren...

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[Sebastian Gaeta]

Greg, You forgot to mention cars built in South Africa, another pointless example.

Yup, the CKD cars were shipped in boxes and had to be assembled in SA, this was to avoid massive taxation. Great example Cliff.

Cars are branded when they are born and that is what they will always be. Your definition of brand is chaos.

While I don't want to appear to be piling on Greg because this is a great discussion, what you say here is spot on.

[Sebastian Gaeta]

I just thought of this....I imagine there has to be an official document proving ownership of the vehicle, a title of some sort as it were. Perhaps not a title in the modern sense, but some sort of official document describing the vehicle and showing a chassis number or other identifying numbers. The car has been registered T2222 forever and there must be a document for that. If it describes the vehicle as a Porsche then boom, there you have it. If it doesn't then it should be case close because as Cliff has pointed out, you cannot retroactively brand a car.

The car has had 4 owners and Mark Pribanic knows the 3rd owner. Mark, if you are reading this, is there any way you can find out how it is "titled" or "registered"?

[Adam Wright]

The tractor example used earlier is sticky too, while Porsche licensed use of the Porsche name and design for the tractors it is my understanding that they didn't actually manufacture the units. But they were badged Porsche, advertised as Porsche, and Porsche still uses them in their advertising to this day, so I'm gonna say they are Porsches.

[Sebastian Gaeta]

The tractor example used earlier is sticky too, while Porsche licensed use of the Porsche name and design for the tractors it is my understanding that they didn't actually manufacture the units. But they were badged Porsche, advertised as Porsche, and Porsche still uses them in their advertising to this day, so I'm gonna say they are Porsches.

Well said.

Number of times Porsche has used 356 001 in its advertising: too many to count. Number of times they’ve used the Type64: 0

No manufacturer uses its history for marketing purposes better than Porsche. If the Type 64 was the first Porsche they’d use images and film of it all the time. They don’t.

[William Block]

Had hoped not to allow myself to get sucked in.
We agree the car was designed by Porsche.
We agree the car was designed for VW.
So was the 924. Even though the 924 was built by VW it's a Porsche (Yes, some of us might not accept this).
The chassis was much more than a VW pan.
So we have a car designed by Porsche, built by Porsche (if not in a factory).
Finally, we have a car badged as a Porsche by Ferry Porsche and apparently sold as a Porsche.

[Greg Haskin]

Cliff, love your Elva. I have a Peerless and a Marcos. My post wasn’t meant to be pedantic. First you said D’Ieteren cars not made at the factory aren’t Porsches, then you said they were all finished at the factory. The point is that there are usually exceptions to the rule with our cars. Belgian cars are still Porsches, despite the fact that many of them were never at the factory. Unlike CKD cars, they were actually created (born) away from the Porsche factory. We can find lots of exceptions to marque provenience all all over the sports car world, but Porsche can keep us plenty busy with exceptions and inconsistencies all day kind.

[Dave Wildrick]

What about the 914?
Also, "What about the buffalo?"--Henry Gibson of Laugh-In

[Christian Guthrie]

Cliff, there is a lot of discussion on this site about cars that were built and shipped directly from Belgium. There are a couple hundred 356s that weren’t built at the Porsche factory at all. Semantics schemantics. I only raise the point to illustrate how absurd some of the “experts” come off when adding 2and 2 to make their conclusion 5. Whether the Type 64 is or isn’t will never be resolved. The fact that it wasn’t built at “the factory” doesn’t decide the issue, as other Porsche’s were built outside the factory as well.

Greg, there is really no question whatsoever, it IS NOT a Porsche. Ferdinand Porsche was an Engineer for Hire. When he started his company, his first engineering project was Number 7 as he did not want his first customer to think he did not have the experience. The "Typ 64" was the design number of which he was commissioned to create a race car for the Rome-Berlin race which never occurred due to another persons agenda. As you know, the "356" was the design number for that project. Ferdinand worked for and with many different companies, including Mercedes, Daimler, Auto Union and Steyr to name a few. All of this can be read in Ludvigsen's book or even better, Ferdinand Porsche: The man and his cars. https://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/sh ... f_pg10.htm